Townhouse Terrace Block-Best Practice.

[Paul P.]

I’m about to undertake my first multi-unit project in Revit, up until now I’ve only used it on detached houses. The project consists of a townhouse terrace block containing five units at the entrance to a development, this block is mirrored on the other side of the entrance with some additional units, but I'll tackle that later, first I'm going to do the smaller five-unit block. Before I start I want to plan the best way to go about this and try to iron out any potential problems down the line.

The smaller five-unit block consists of two house types, one central unit flanked on the other side by the other house type that is then handed. The central house type is a one-off so I’ve no problems with that one, the other house type I am going to do as a one-off and then hand/mirror it on one side of the block floor by floor. Then copy the floor layouts using groups from on side of the block to the other. Are there any major problems with this, if so what.

I also have the project split into different worksets exterior, interior, furniture and services (first real go at using them apart from the tutorials and Jim B’s and Cyril V’s books) even though a single user, me will be doing the job, as that’s seems to be the general consensus for ease of use in Revit in not slowing down the model.

Also party wall situations, what is the general consensus on party walls and how to go about them in Revit. Would putting the party walls on the interior workset cause any problems and is this the best way to go about it.

I would be grateful of any help, is there anything that I’m proposing to do that is blatantly stupid/unnecessary. Any help or pointers, do’s and don’ts would be gratefully received.

Regards, Paul.

[Paul P.]

Don't all shout at once.

[PeterJ]

Groups are well discussed here Paul, a quick serach will give a wealth of advice on the pitfalls of this tool and how best to use it.

On the workset option I would suggest you either place your party walls in a 'demise walls' workset or in the external walls workset, this will enable you to view unit demise walls if you need to show that type of information for utilities schematics or any other general layout drawings without needing to resort to other workarounds such as changing your walls to bearing and the view to structural.

I don't think there is any particular problem with party walls in Revit but if you are aiming to use a standard house type as a group and may need to step their position forward and back in a terrace then the party walls would need to be excluded from the group.

[Paul P.]

Pete thanks for that for the reply, already done the search thing before I posted and I'm in the process of putting together a best practice method of working with regards to the use of Groups and Worksets.

The reason I was asking is that some of the more in-depth discussions are before release 6 and I was wondering do the rules of using groups mentioned in them still apply (what to group/what not to group) or have they been fixed, or are they still ‘buggy’ as someone described them. Reading my post back I didn’t make that clear.

Once I’ve finished my best practice method of working with Groups and Worksets I’ll post it here for comments to see if I’m proposing to go about it in the right way.

Regards, Paul.

[PeterJ]

I'm working on a 45 unit scheme with some use of groups for bathrooms, kitchens, furniture layouts and some facade elements and they still strike me as buggy, but once you know what the bugs (or perhaps restrictions would be a better description) are you can make good use of the tool.

[Martin P]

Not sure that this will be called best practice, but I think it is certainly easiest...... ;)


I have done a few of these now, What I have been doing is to link 1 model together again and again. The party walls are not great I have just been placing the units side by side then on plan and section "drafting" over the top of the gable walls for the party walls. Its a little bit of a workaround and not parametric etc but is much easier than trying to figure it all out in the link model and having 2 or 3 different one for different situations. I have not run into any big problems at all, and changing 1 unit to update all of them really is nice! I would advise this method, seems to work very well. I have just done block plans for the terraces, and all the detail for each unit is in a separate drawing (model) showing just the single units. I only highlight the party walls etc on the terrace drawing as they are all that is different. If the walls are not showing the correct joined geometry in the 3D model (ie the gable walls will always overlap) I simply use a model line........ works very well and very fast.... have attached a couple of pdfs for you to see.


THE SEMI PDF IS NOT USING THIS METHOD IT IS ONE MODEL - THE TERRACE IS 2 OF THE SEMI MODELS LINKED

[Martin P]

Oh.. the roofs, forgot to metion that. The roof visibility is switched off in the linked models (either by phasing or view settings) I then do one roof over the whole lot in the drawing they are all linked into - otherwise you get "joins" in the roof. That is the only problem I hit, but got round easily by doing this. the walls in elevation - just use a white line to wipe out the joins that appear in those - beware when exporting to Autocad though :(

It is a bit work aroundy, but is very easy and most of all its quick. If you are bothered about linework 3D views showing the overlaps in the walls I suppose you could always export to dwg then delete the offending lines, or just show shaded only views, or do something similar to the roofs if it really bothers you!! I just showed 1 3D view and it looks like a movement joint anyway...

[BomberAIA]

I do a lot of townhouses and I use groups for my interior walls, doors, fixtures and millwork. If I have a different building type I copy the exterior walls over and copy into it each unit type that is a group. This way all my schedules work and if I make a change it updates in all the units.

[PeterJ]

Martin

Think about making your text in two columns, it will make it easier to read and with all that white space compressed into sections the width of a narrower column may well take up less space. Nice drawings otherwise.

Do you include all the electrics etc in the group?

P

[Martin P]

Yeah, the text is a bit dodgy looking now that you mention it!! - re electrics, I don't include these in the terraced blocks, as I only have to show it on the detailed (semi detataced) floor plans - all the terraced ones are exactly the same elecarical layout, so there is no need to duplicate this information, the plumbing is shown as it differs on a terraced block.

I should point out that the method I would use would depend on the variations of house types to be used. In this particular project because there are terraced versions and semi detatched versions of the same house type - linking is the method I used..... If it were only terraced I would have definitely used groups..... but where it is the same basic house type and you have detatched, semi det and terraced versions of the same block - I would use linking, rather than having 3 completely separate models to edit............ Scheduling is not a problem - its simply a case multiplying the base one by the number of houses.

[Scott D Davis]

I have a feeling Groups will be much improved in Revit 7.0. I know it doesn't help you now, but if you can wait a couple of months.....:)

[Paul P.]

Pete, Martin, Bomber thanks for your replies, I'm going to decide on my proposed method of attack over the weekend and then see what happens.

Scott, tempting as it is I cant really wait that long, I don't think the client is willing to wait for the next release of Revit. It's taken two years for the final approval for this to come through as it's in a greenbelt area.

Regards, Paul.

[tc3dcad60731]

Sorry - Not trying to butt in on the exchange here but was looking at the pdf of the drawings provided in the posts. Very good and Revit is impressing me more each day. My question is one of architectural drafting period.

When drawing walls is it customary to make them solid. I have seen it done both ways but it is there a set standard???

[Martin P]

We always do Solid (solid fill grey) walls at the early stages, this is very easy with Revit - you just set it in the view settings as coarse display rather than fine, when the design has stopped changing and we are doing costruction drawings we set it to fine display and all the detail comes in then.

[PaulB]

Martin,

What is a "dwang" - never heard of that term during my days over there. Come to think of it we never did timber framed houses either. Is it a recent trend towards timber framing ?

Nice to see the detailing is still done as much as it used to be, you must be one of a dying breed Martin, as most of the walls are shown as two lines these days - takes way too long to put in all that detail. Still, takes less time with Revit than with AutoCAD.

Regards,


Paul

[Martin P]

In Scotland almost all domestic buildings are timber framed I have never done anything else yet. I think in England it is more common to use brick/block construction, I may be wrong but I think timber frame is taking off a bit more in England now as well?

A dwang is what you'd maybe call a nogging - a short piece of timber between studs to keep them rigid. We do use some odd words :), Peter J came across a few when I did some drawings for him

Slapping - a new hole into an exsting wall. - or to fill in a hole in an existing wall. I think this is maybe a type of slang word that builders round here use ie from saying "slap a hole into the wall"

Coombe - sloped ceiling, No idea where that came from!

Re the walls, If I put out construction drawings with Solid walls I am pretty certain that we woul not get a building warrant and that the contractors would go mad!! It is "the way" it is done here, nobody does it any different...

[Paul P.]

We do a mix of both, right now I'm working on three apartment blocks on the same of varying shape and size that are all timber frame. Its become more popular over the last three years here.

[Damo]

Paul,
Others have replied well to your question. I would just add, if your previous work was on detached houses, make sure you have a copy of 'Robust Details Part E - Resistance to the Passage of Sound'. Published in May 2004 from Robust Details Ltd. 0870 240 8210.

It includes some (not many) approved Party Wall details that will be acceptable to Building Control, otherwise you will have to go through a process of testing to confirm your Party Wall will conform to Part E.

[PeterJ]

Paul,
Others have replied well to your question. I would just add, if your previous work was on detached houses, make sure you have a copy of 'Robust Details Part E - Resistance to the Passage of Sound'. Published in May 2004 from Robust Details Ltd. 0870 240 8210.

It includes some (not many) approved Party Wall details that will be acceptable to Building Control, otherwise you will have to go through a process of testing to confirm your Party Wall will conform to Part E.
He's right, but do bear in mind that the details are limited at present. I went to a Corus sponsored CPD event last week and one of the speakers said that in their view it wasn't yet possible to complete a building using Robust Details alone so some pre-completion testing will continue to be necessary.

We are working on a development at present which is stell framed with all lightweight internals and it is astonishing how much of it you have to look at the robust details for and then simply sit down and work it all out yourself from first principles.

[adegnan]

A dwang is what you'd maybe call a nogging - a short piece of timber between studs to keep them rigid. We do use some odd words :), Peter J came across a few when I did some drawings for him


IOW, what most of us in the States would call "Blocking?"

[beegee]

A dwang is what you'd maybe call a nogging - a short piece of timber between studs to keep them rigid.
Just goes to show, don't it, .... I always thought a dwang was a singer in a country band, you know - like Dwang McDuffie and the Kentucky Mountain Men.....

[Martin P]

IOW, what most of us in the States would call "Blocking?"

Have been watching a new program on TV that has started on one of the Satellite channels called "Holmes on homes" or "nightmare house" cant remember exactly what it is called !! its a North American builder who goes in and fixes bad builder work done by others... Its very interesting just to see how things are done. Not too different but there are some. For example he did some garage foundations, and the below ground walls were insitu concrete off the the footings, poured into formwork. There was no basement or anything - is this normal practice in the US, do you not use blockwork below ground? And the garage was insulated and lined with plasterboard, is this fairly normal practice too? I liked that idea, most garages here are pretty awful places inside!!

[adegnan]

Poured concrete foundations are standard for all basement and frostwalls in my part of Wisconsin. Only 60 miles away block foundations take over! So it varies greatly, and I think that others in the US would report these options as well.

In my area, basements are always installed. With garages, just a frost wall and slab typically (although I am building my house with prefabricated superior walls www.superwall.com and with a workshop space under my garage with a precast concrete floor to support the cars on the main level).

In the South and West, basements are uncommon.

It is common for us, as a builder, to install insulation and drywall in garages. When the exterior of the garage wall has a drainage plane (to keep water that sneaks behind siding/brick/stucco out) it holds up quite well, even after 20+ years. Other builders do not do this; it is an issue of budget-- is it worth an extra $1500? We think it is in comfort and presentation.

[Zig]

Martin,

The "Holmes on Homes" is shot here in Toronto, Canada. My wife likes to watch the show because is always wearing an undershirt and overalls. I'm not a big fan - probably for the same reason that my wife likes to watch. Regardless, yes poured in place tends to be the norm in Toronto. Once you get out of the Metropolitan area you will find the odd block basement but you will also find a lot of insulated form walls. Regarding the garage being finished with Gypsum Board - yes that seems to be the norm as well.

I don't know that you can pick it up by satellite but I prefer a show called "Real Renos", again shot in Toronto.

[Martin P]

Martin,

The "Holmes on Homes" is shot here in Toronto, Canada. My wife likes to watch the show because is always wearing an undershirt and overalls. I'm not a big fan - probably for the same reason that my wife likes to watch. Regardless, yes poured in place tends to be the norm in Toronto. Once you get out of the Metropolitan area you will find the odd block basement but you will also find a lot of insulated form walls. Regarding the garage being finished with Gypsum Board - yes that seems to be the norm as well.

I don't know that you can pick it up by satellite but I prefer a show called "Real Renos", again shot in Toronto.

I must admit that it was actually my wife that was watching it when I came in, I suspected it may have been something to do with the overalls too :)

Apologies for calling your part of the world the North of America, I suppose that would like calling us the North of England LOL... I will look out for Real Renos

Is there a reason for the concrete? is it cheaper,faster,better? I experct it is because the garages are timber clad and that way you dont need a brick layer. I wondered too when watching it, do the building codes in the US and Canada vary from area to area, there must be vast differences is weather as both are so large.

[Zig]

Concrete tends to be a bit cheaper in the Metropolitan Toronto Area. It also allows you to have a higher basement ceiling. The laterally unsupported height of the wall is typically allowed to be higher in concrete than it is in the equivalent thickness of unit masonry. (without getting into reinforcing). I find that a few inches of savings in the overall width of the foundation wall assembly gives a bit more freedom in the location of stairs, etc.

I don't know for sure but in suburban sprawl, cookie-cutter houses there would have to be savings in labour & materials in reusing forms.

[LarryG]

....

Once I’ve finished my best practice method of working with Groups and Worksets I’ll post it here for comments to see if I’m proposing to go about it in the right way.

Regards, Paul.
Paul,

This thread seems to have gone astray....

Did you manage to develop a successful best practice method of dealing with these project types?

Thanks,

[Paul P.]

Hi Larry, with regards to the use of worksets simple answer is no, it was decided not to use them on this particular project because of a number of reasons. This was mainly to do with having never used them, the time scale that we had to work in and also the fact that we had several new users starting on the project.

The use of worksets is high on my list of priorities in the coming months, I've been putting together everything I can on the use of worksets that I've found in these forums and no doubt I will be posting here asking a lot of questions and once we have used them I will post back here to let you no what happened.

We did make use of groups and found them to be very useful, all the information you need about the use of groups can be found here in these forums and in the help files, that’s if you’ve not already looked.

Hope that helps in some way.

Regards, Paul.