Who cuts who

[radu.grosu]

Structural columns should cut every other item they are joined with.
They already cut beams they should do so with walls and floors as well. These families (walls and floors) are frequently multilayered and they currently cut the concrete out of columns with their insulation and substrate layers. Which is unacceptable.

Walls, especially in seismic regions, need a larger section at their ends to increase their ductility. This would be normally modelled by using structural columns (could be modelled with walls as well, but when using columns you gain flexibility in controlling their dimensions by virtue of their types). These columns, for the same reason I mentioned above, have a higher concrete class than the rest of the wall (the web). Currently, because of the imposed join hierarchy, this would look quite wrong, as the wall cuts the material out of the column.

The bottom line is, let the user decide who cuts who.

[m20roxxers]

When you use the attach tool it gives you options to do this. But I agree more control even just to the point where you click on cut and then you determine who cuts who by your pick order.

[Steve Mintz]

In Revit structure 2009.1, walls which are set to "shear" will be cut by structural columns.

I will have to check, but I believe any wall not set to bearing will be cut by structural columns

[Andre Carvalho]

In Revit structure 2009.1, walls which are set to "shear" will be cut by structural columns.

I will have to check, but I believe any wall not set to bearing will be cut by structural columns

Unless Revit Structure acts differently, in Revit Architecture, using the structural tab to create structural walls and structural columns, the walls will cut the columns, doesn't matter if it is set to Shear, Bearing or Structural Combined...

Andre Carvalho

[gbenjamin.arch]

Morning guys and gals

I am a long time lurker – and usually don’t contribute because most of the issues that I have had has been solved by many of the other regular posters on this forum….except for this one.

I am having a similar issue with structural columns, architectural columns, and wall finishes not joining properly. I would think that STRUCTURAL columns overrides EVERYTHING, but I have found out that this is not always the case. I thought I was going around making this model correctly – as the way it would be built….Structural columns first – then walls – the architectural columns to finish. For some reason…some walls go straight through the columns and I haven’t figured out any logic to why the program does this because this issue is erratic and doesn’t happen everywhere. It almost seems as if the architectural column is overriding the structural somehow.

I have tried changing the wall structural properties all around (from non-bearing…which it is…to structural/shear) just to see what happens and this had no effect on the display. I just got so tired of this issue that I decided to post – since after a lot of forum searching (and I have become good at that) I couldn’t find a solution…or even an issue similar to mine. I posted a few images – Image A shows one of the many renegade columns - Notice that the columns around it wrap the way they should. Image B is just another example.

Thanks in advance

[Andre Carvalho]

What I have found is:

- Structural walls will automatically join structural columns and architectural columns. That said, structural walls will cut structural columns and architectural columns at the moment they join. Unjoining them will make them overlap with the wall.

-Non structural walls will automatically join architectural columns but not structural columns. Joining the structural columns with non structural wall will make the wall cut material from the structural columns. If you just insert an structural column in a non structural wall, the structural column will mask the wall and look fine. Trying to join will make the wall cut the column and if you try to unjoin, then the wall and column will overlap and you can't have the structural column to mask the wall again (you will have to delete the old one and add a new structural column)

Andre Carvalho

[gbenjamin.arch]

What you suggested actually worked ( I really thought I tried that before! Maybe I deleted the wall and tried to replace it rather than the other way around….) and I thank you for your help. What troubles me though is that I created all the columns first, then started to do walls…if the issue was the order in which they were drawn (which your solution suggests) then wouldn’t I have had this problem for all the columns?

Not for the sake of argument - because you already helped me (and I am very grateful)! Just trying to figure out the root of the problem in the enigma that is Revit...

[Andre Carvalho]

What you suggested actually worked ( I really thought I tried that before! Maybe I deleted the wall and tried to replace it rather than the other way around….) and I thank you for your help. What troubles me though is that I created all the columns first, then started to do walls…if the issue was the order in which they were drawn (which your solution suggests) then wouldn’t I have had this problem for all the columns?

Not for the sake of argument - because you already helped me (and I am very grateful)! Just trying to figure out the root of the problem in the enigma that is Revit...

No, you don't have to care about order in which the columns or walls are drawn. You can draw structural columns first and then make the non structural wall cross it and the structural columns will mask the wall. Or you can draw the non structural wall first and then insert the structural columns later and the structural columns will still mask the wall.

The problem is structural columns AND structural walls. Then they will be automatically joined and the wall will cut material from the column.

Andre Carvalho

[gbenjamin.arch]

Ohhhh I understand.

I just thought I was pretty careful to make sure all my walls were non bearing when I made them. I suppose I could had been careless at some point. I will look into this.

THANKS A LOT ANDRE!! :)

[Steve Mintz]

Unless Revit Structure acts differently, in Revit Architecture, using the structural tab to create structural walls and structural columns, the walls will cut the columns, doesn't matter if it is set to Shear, Bearing or Structural Combined...

Andre Carvalho

Are you using 2009.1? I created a little test in both RST and RAC. Because the behavior was added in a minor release you may need to unjoin then rejoin the walls to get the proper behavior.

[Andre Carvalho]

Are you using 2009.1? I created a little test in both RST and RAC. Because the behavior was added in a minor release you may need to unjoin then rejoin the walls to get the proper behavior.

Hey Steve,

When I posted I was using Revit Architecture 2009 web update 1 and now I have installed the service pack 2. (I'm not sure if you are talking about Revit 2009.1 as the web update 1 or the new version released a few days ago which also contains AutoCAD and AutoCAD Architecture...)

Andre Carvalho

[Steve Mintz]

The 2009.1 I am refering to is Web Update 1 for Revit 2009; this is not the latest one released, which I believe is Web Update 2.

I am still running build 20080602_1900; you should have had the same behavior before you upgrade.

[jon111712]

Sorry to bring this up again, but is this "fix" something exclusive to 2009? I'm currently on 2008, build 20071109_2345, and I'm finding that my structural columns aren't always cutting my non-bearing wall. Sometimes, even within the same wall.

Although, if I insert a new column, then it's fine. Any ideas why this is happening?

[jon111712]

Ok, maybe I answered my own question, but, it seems that when you insert a structural column in wireframe, it will always have the wall represented as going through the column, but if you insert the structural column in hidden line, then all is good, the wall will be represented as being cut by the column.Odd. Again, maybe this is a 2008 thing that was fixed in 2009, but odd non-the-less.

Reason for the wireframe: we have been locking our columns to the ones below so that we can model them floor-to-floor as they will be built, but they will act as a single unit when we are moving them around.

Please let me know if someone has a workaround for this because I'm not looking forward to re-drawing and re-constraining all my columns.

Thanks
Jon

[AdamCP]

Where structural columns are being cut by the wall, select the walls and change their Structural Usage to anything other than Bearing; use the unjoin geometry tool on the columns (you now have wall/column sharing same space); use the join geometry tool to rejoin the columns and walls (pick order doesn't matter in this case). The columns should now be cutting the walls; change the Structural Usage of the walls back to bearing.

The columns you did this on will always cut the wall provided you don't unjoin them. New columns will exibit the standard behaviour of being cut by the wall.

This is from Revit Structure 2009, version 20081118_1045.

[jon111712]

That sort of works on 2008. I'm attaching images of my model so everyone can see what's going on with my stuff. In image_a, you can see how the model currently looks. Image_b is what happens when I use the method from adam below. While it does solve the issue of having the wall run through the column, it doesn't actually cut the wall, it joins the geometry. What I'm after is image_c. Again, the only way I've found to do that is to insert a column in Hidden Line, then move to Wireframe to lock to the column below.

I know that things don't always look the way we want them to in Revit (can you say Elevation Tags), but this is something that I can actually control. Again, this might have changed in 2009, but I only have 2008 to base my comments on.

[AdamCP]

To get the result in image C, I had to make sure that a) the wall/column used different materials (even just a renamed duplicate is fine) and b) either the whole view, or the walls or columns, are shown in medium or fine detail. The view detail only seemed to matter where the wall/column was being cut by the view plane. In projection it showed correctly regardless of detail level.

I suppose you could always split your wall and align the two ends to either side of the column, which is obviously what will happen in the Real World. But of course that'd only work for columns oriented and in line with the walls, and it would probably be the most time consuming method.

[jon111712]

Hm, those are some interesting finding. I think the different materials make sense. In the end. My hidden line/wireframe thing worked. I've got all my columns looking like image_c, in coarse view. Thanks for all the help.

[joaorcunha]

I am experiencing a similar problem, however without a solution as far as I know....

The strange thing is that in wireframe the view seems better than in hidden mode.

The columns are made of concrete, and walls are per default.

Any hints?

Thanks in advance,

João.