Column Wrap

[Steve_Stafford]

I'd like some fresh eyes to look at this condition and kick me in the right direction...

I'd like to put a 4" masonry veneer around columns as shown, except I like the veneer to clean up with the veneer. Easy, but they want to clean up with the core since the 4" is really a "core". Didn't see a way to make it think it's really a finish. Cut profile doesn't do it for me.

I will probably blow it off and catch it in the detail but I must be missing something more obvious, seems like it should be easier to do.

[JamesVan]

Steve,

What is the function of the 4" veneer material set as? Perhaps it is set as 'Structure' instead of 'Finish'?

[Steve_Stafford]

Just checked, structure but setting to finish or anything else had no effect...the wall is a single component...setting to finish, it's still a core object.

I tried adding a very thin core, moving the finish up and out of the core with results, not good results but different.

I'll try an in-place wall family next...I guess.

[JamesVan]

Well, I guess one "good" :roll: thing about ADT is that you can set the priority level for any component in a wall structure. The higher the number, the more 'importance' it has (or vice-versa) as far as cleanups are concerned. I would have thought that setting the veneer as a finish would avoid the forced cleanup...

:idea: Wait a minute, have you tried Edit Wall Joins->Disallow Joins option? See screenshot...

Do you think this is a bug that finishes clean up with structure.

Sorry for the 'stream of conciousness' here, but have you tried modifying the Core Boundary of the main wall. If you move it up to the veneer, then it seems that the Cores clean up with other Cores and it should solve your problem. See screenshots 2 & 3.

[Steve_Stafford]

The wall joins command does not do anything, I get a box but Revit doesn't offer the options bar when I click. So I can't get to "disallow" joins...

There is also something else behind the scenes here...I have two worksets, one base bid and one Alternate...two walls in the same spot two different worksets, workset reference restrictions fixed my other issues and my cleanup issue is no different if I draw them elsewhere but I think that is why the wall join command isn't responding. The confluence of walls and worksets are more than it can contend with, I believe.

Anywho, I've made peace with the unsightlyness of the cleanup for now. I welcome any other ideas. Surely this is not the first pilaster wrapping a column :shock: :D

[aaronrumple]

The trick is that you need another wall style. the contractor isn't going to put brick inside the pilaster. This short section will be a separate wall style similar to the mail wall, but with no brick or airspace... Will work Just fine them. Now are you going to make the poor contrcator cut the CMU around the steel column too? I have an example if needed...

[Steve_Stafford]

Example, Yes...please!

The wall in my example is a separate wall style. I have a cavity wall style and a "veneer" style for the pilaster.

[sbrown]

Steve if you just make your column a simple rectangle, not the shape of the veneer that should work.

[Steve_Stafford]

Okay...I'm dense...I'm using a wall style, 3 chunks, 2 sides and 1 front. Are you saying forget them and use an in-place family extrusion square instead?

Like zo? attached

[Yman]

Just place a column attached to the brick layer and it will fill it in.

Y.

[Yman]

Oops, I see Scott said the same thing.

Y.

[sbrown]

not an in place family, just load the rectangular column from the col. directory in the library, change its size and place it.

[Steve_Stafford]

aah...see I told you to use a rectangular column family and join it to the wall...why won't you listen?? That was pretty easy, which is what I expected :shock:

Don't you wish that columns made the top level selectable on the options bar when you place them, instead of having to edit them afterward? Just like walls!

Thanks guys

now if I could just figure out what the line cutting across the "opening" really is...

[GS Fulton]

BTW. to make the "disallow join" command work, the walls in question cannot be joined. You have to separate them and, if they are close together, you will get the option for "disallow join". Still doesn't really help is 5 out of 6 cases but going in the right direction.

George F.

[JamesVan]

Nice solution you guys, but I would tend to favor Aaron's solution and present it in a way that is closer to how they would actually build this condition. See attached.

[Steve_Stafford]

That's not how our structural guy wants it...he's using the masonry as a shear wall...so we "can't" have the gap you describe.

The 12" CMU will butt up to the column and will anchor to it. The image I posted is closer to what he wants and the column detail will show the "actual" order of things. I just need to get the form close so the elevations and plans work in those views.

I didn't see an example from Aaron?

[Martin P]

A wall based generic model seems the easiest? cuts the walls around the column where required too. Doing it as walls seems prone to going a bit off, especially if you move the wall, and I image you have this situation more than once? thats the rule isnt it, more than one and you make a family for it.... you could add all the detail to the family too as a detail component.

anyway I'm off home for a bbq and a beer, its sunny for a change here :D 8)

[Steve_Stafford]

Have fun, put one on the grill for me...I'll be a little late though.

The WBGM might be worth a try but another time. The "calleum" method Scott and Y recommend worked nicely for me.

[aaronrumple]

I couln't get any contractor I know to so closly fit CMU to a steel column. And I doubt I would want them to because of the steel and CMU expansion rates. About the best they would do is run a thinner course of CMU past the column and hold it tight. I'd probably also specify a bond breaker between the two elements...

See if this is close...

[Steve_Stafford]

Yes, that's more like it, the 12" CMU at the top of your image becomes 4" CMU right in front of the Column. The veneer outside the building wraps on "coursing"...in my case 24". It only needs to protrude a convenient depth for the mason and to give it comfortable clearance past the column to use conventional sizes, 4" in this case...

The actual column detail will show the intended layout, the 1/8" scale plan need to just show the general shape and ideal cleanup well, as yours does nicely.

So, you going to share your technique to model that please? Pretty please with sugar on top? :D

[aaronrumple]

I've been a bit more creative... and discovered a couple of new things myself...
A. Architectural Columns wrap materials.
B. Structual does not.
C. Take advantage of this and you can have some real fun...

Ran out of upload space... so emailed directly to you...

[aaronrumple]

I posted a *.rvt file with the examples on the adsk revit customer files newsgroup with the tile Pilatsers...

There are a couple of silly things in theis as I was experimenting with a bunch of stuff - so don't take everything as "must do..."

[JamesVan]

Aaron,

Did you know you can manage your attachments by going to the memberlist and clicking on your username. Then there is a link under your attachment quota that will take you to the attachment manager.

James

[LRaiz]

Aaron made a critical observation regarding the difference between architectural and structural columns.

Architectural columns are designed to serve as bumps/protrusions on walls that columns are joined to. Architectural columns take finish materials from host walls and wrap them appropriately. Structural columns on the other hand typically have their own materials, are not intended to be joined to walls and take wall finish materials. Structural columns are usually placed inside of an architectural column enclosure. This is the conceptual model that attempts to provide design elements that correspond to construction reality. HTH.