About Deliverables and mid-modelling - how do you do it?

[3dway]

How do you prepare your drawings now that you use revit?

Our old CAD way:

Our architects hand sketch schematic design plans on trace. The narrow it down until we're about on one plan with the exception of some room changes and adjustments. We'll start putting the plans to cad at this point and make the last few adjustments in CAD then issue squiggled hand drawn looking sketches. While this is going on, the architects start working on hand sketched elevations. We'll adjust number and spacing of mullions window locations etc... all the while heading into design development. DD kind of starts when we get into cad. Walls aren't sketched at 6" it's 5 1/2", trims aren't 4" it's 3 1/2" etc.... walls line up over foundation walls and so on. The last few tweaks are issued as squiggled CAD drawings. Plans and Elevations. By now we'll have done schematic stair sections and building sections to make sure the elevations work etc. We've also issued design drawings to the client about three or four times. We can just stop progress and output, pretty much whenever we want.

Now I'm on Revit:

It feels like everything is developed at once so nothing is ever ready to produce a deliverable. Everything is 20% instead of the plans being 80% and can issue early versions of those while the elevations are developed. Today I look like an *** because this is the second time I've had to bounce Revit files out to cad to finish them off. We don't have a good library built yet and every time the architect comes back from a client meeting, I'm building several new families. I have to use counter shaped sweeps for kitchens with no detail to get them in to show in plan and worry about building a proper family later. It all fees so half assed and incomplete.

Have you perhaps changed your delivery method to be Exterior and elevations first? then do plans later? How do you cope with this sort of thing?

The funny thing is that they warned us this would happen. They said "you have to commit to revit and force yourself to use it or you will get close to a deadline and end up using CAD to finish it and then not go back to Revit". I'm almost at "...not go back to Revit" because our delivery method does not suit Revit's workflow.

Please God help me.

[dgreen.49364]

Patience. You are at the frustrating phase where you know just enough to muddle thru but not enough to complete. If you stick with it, you'll get to that warm and happy place...

We use Revit for all of our cad from the very earliest stages. Your comment about everything developing at once is only true if that is how you approach Revit. There is no reason you can't develop quick elevations and then go back and put more detail into your plans.

One pointer I have to offer is to not get too worked up over families during conceptual and SD phases. During those stages, we model walls, doors, windows, roofs, generic floors and not much else. Millwork, casework and such gets drawn in model lines until we get further down the road. We develop the model more and more as we get further into Construction Docs.

I just re-read your post...not sure how your delivery method should be a problem. I must not be understanding something. Revit does what you tell it to. If you want plans and elevations first, then do plans and elevations first (makes sense to me, that's what we do). Then go on to stairs, sections, whatever.

Anyway, stick with it. The learning curve can be steep at first but it is worth it.

[Rick Houle]

I feel your pain, mhowson...
All this time i thought i was competing with cad, when it turns out, i'm really competing with design-minded folks, their undefined conceptual process, and that evil toy SketchUP, which i liken to crack-cocaine (in the design community).

Long story short (i just deleted my big rant), we ARE getting past this. Some teams use SketchUp imagery inside of Revit in early phases; some people have no problems coming through with straight Revit and photoshop... It is all about the deliverables and the expectations set forth by those in charge. Lock these people down and get them to tell you EXACTLY what they need -- and then hold them to it.

Do not spend three days making a custom window family that can super-flex for the entire life of a project when all you need to do is PRINT ELEVATIONS by end of day...
AND, PLEASE, have your SHEETS set up and ready to print at all times. Come through for people - dont keep things in disarray.

And, most importantly, do not let ANYONE blame Revit for the shortcomings you may be experiencing in the office. Blame lack of education, blame the internal process... force people to reconsider and redefine the company work flow... but do not blame the tool that has yet to be mastered.

[twiceroadsfool]

And, most importantly, do not let ANYONE blame Revit for the shortcomings you may be experiencing in the office. Blame lack of education, blame the internal process... force people to reconsider and redefine the company work flow... but do not blame the tool that has yet to be mastered.

This is the key, right here.

First, you need to have the necessary parts ready to go, befoer youre going to be successful with your old workflow in Revit. I dont mean parts as in a Family for every situation, i mean parts as in: Knowing what to use, knowing how to make it quickly, and knowing how the team needs to function together.

As for families, thats part of the learning process, just like setting up standards in AutoCAD. Again, it doesnt mean having every family built, but it means knowing enough to not be intimidated or worried that you need a window in an hour and cant get it made. As mentioned before, they dont have to be "ultimate families" (although i always find its better to make them flex over not making them flex... and again, it shouldnt take that long once you have the methods down).

In terms of deliverables... It just means having to work smarter, not harder. In my HUMBLE opinion, using methods to *get things out the door quick* do you more harm than good, cuz you have to retrace yuor steps tomorrow. Need a plan with a kitchen quick? Hit up the imperial library, drop in some cabinets. You need a corner one and cant find it? Save As, edit the geometry, and plunk it in. Drafting lines mean hurrying today, AND tomorrow when you have to redo it.

Designers want to work on the elevations AFTER the plan? Im not sure why that should be a problem, honestly...

Ive found model groups to be of an unlimited potential regarding changing things instantly. Ive got groups saved to files for swapping things in and out, and it works wonderfully. The client IS the designer on my projects, and he changes things up til and well beyond the permit set deadline, LOL...

BUT, youve got to get comfortable with building families. We have the office library, then the libraries for proejct specific stuff... And theres always a good hundred families in there, if not more, by the time drawings go out...

[sbrown]

You should still get your plans right in revit. in Concept or schematic treat it as a "horizontal" approach. for casework create a line type calle casework plan, casework overhead and just draft it in. then in DD create teh actual casework. Dont feel like you have to do everything 3d. This includes your family creation. The trick is to still create a casework family, but just use lines or a window or furniture, etc. Just like you would in cad. Get the opening and size right, the rest is just lines, when your model/design matures you swap out or edit the family to create the 3d content you need.

The big picture however is truely that the first 2 design phases take longer and the cds will be shorter.

Note we will still use hand drawn elevations thru SD. so the SD model should have everything the right size, height, location. So it can be traced over, then just print it out, have the designers draw over it and then import it back in and turn your model off. They can use cad for this if they want. then the process doesn't change and it also makes creating the families easier later.

[3dway]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

Our hopes for revit here are to work more efficenitly. Do it once. By do it once, I mean, have millwork families at the ready, drop them in in DD and have a plan, interior elevations, and section of a kitchen mostly done.

What we have going for us is that we have a "product", or a "style". We do craftsman style custom homes. Our window and trim style if usually the same, with a few variations on number and location of transoms and lites. I have the basics covered already and they flex. In the latest project, arched tops showed up and I found myself with no families all of a sudden. I have to modify what I have.

The same columns show up over and over. So that helps.

My problem areas are things like roofs. We do extremely complicated roofs and things like flares kill the roof by footprint tool. I tried by mass and got a result that looked right but the geometry was ****. I think I'll end up modelling masses in another 3d app and bringing them in. I find the sweeps blends and extrusions which are limited by what plane they're in, and where you can work on them extremely limiting. I'm used to 3dsmax and sketchup. Even silo. All very freeform 3d modelling apps.

Trim is another pain point. We use a lot of exterior trim and I'm modelling in place families for all of this sort of thing.

The more mass roofs I use and the more in place families I use, the less things are connected and changes become hunt and peck coordination all over again, like cad, but in 3d. I don't know how and when to make constraints yet. More often than not, when I make a constrain it doesn't work like I expect it to. Like, I'll dimnsion a shelf to a wall so the shelf goes with the wall, but I'll find it won't let me move the wall then without breaking a constraint.

Well, I'll keep trying until I either master it or get fired. If I blow another deadline because I don't know the tool, it won't be long. About half of the firm was opposed to getting revit. I'm one of the supporters, and I don't like the "I told you so's" that are flying around here in these early stages.

[twiceroadsfool]

Craftsman houses??? Where are you based, and are you hiring? LOL...

[3dway]

Craftsman houses??? Where are you based, and are you hiring? LOL...

Craftsman / Arts and Crafts style are strong in out architecture. We're definately not doing craftsman if you think of craftsman like the true defenition where there is not substitute for the real materials and the architect should design everything down to the furniture.

We're in Ottawa Canada. If you come in and show us how to find the zen of Revit, I'm sure they'll think about it.

[twiceroadsfool]

Noo... I LOVE the "new craftsman" houses... Craftsman-esque but with new greener materials. I have a couple of books at home that are always my leisurely reading.

If only you werent so far away... Im in Syracuse NY, but id definetely show you the Zen of Revit. :)

[3dway]

Noo... I LOVE the "new craftsman" houses... Craftsman-esque but with new greener materials. I have a couple of books at home that are always my leisurely reading.

If only you werent so far away... Im in Syracuse NY, but id definetely show you the Zen of Revit. :)

Yeah, and the fact that you may get caught up in the red tape and shenanigans going on with our architectural association. We're in the middle of establishing a national exams system that's reciprocal with the US. As far as I know, you'd likely loose any acreditation and have to write our exams and do an internship again to become licensed. I could be wrong since I've had no real need to look into it, but it's a possibility.

The skiing is decent here.

[3dway]

Bump, to get more replies on how you deliver, or how you made the jump from CAD.

Thanks.