Dynamically linked Curb Profiles

[jason.williams]

All local jurisdictions in the Phoenix metro area in state of Arizona requires profiles for center, left and right curb line. Anyone know of the best way to dynamically link the left and right profile as it relates to the centerline alignment to the corridor? This applies to a subdivision design with valley gutters, cul-de-sacs, knuckles and pavement transition and warps.

[dsimons]

I have run into this as well. The only way I have figured out how to solve it is by creating an alignment out of the flow line (pain in the you know what) and then plot that on your profile. You have the ability to create a 3d poly line out of 2d polyline and visa versa under the grading menu - polyline utilities.

Let me know if you find a better way.

Thanks,

[jason.williams]

We are currently doing as you describe, but it seems it is a longer process them with LDD and the additional profile software we were using. We will be speaking with other user groups in the Phoenix area to see if there is a better, more efficient way.

With Subdivision projects I concluded to design center, left, and right and then superimpose the left and right to the centerline profile in the sheet. Since extracted polylines from the corridor are not dynamically link and a superimposed profile are.

Seems we were left behind by Autodesk on this process within Civil3D, but we are of very very few places that even profile all 3-sides of a road. I'll respond back my conclusion next week.

Going to CADsoft Consulting monthly Phoenix Civil User Group, Sept. 29.

[wag24]

with respect to the alignments and the corridor.....

I would start by creating 3 alignments. One for the center of the roadway, one for the left curb and one for the right curb.

Once your have that established along with your assembly go to your corridor properties box. Under the parameters tab click the "set all targets" button.

Then where is reads width or offset targets, under object name you want to set the left and right alignments you just created...and under subassembly attach the proper point of the assembly you created.

This way the corridor should act as one piece..

[sinc]

The general problem is that some areas require Plan & Profile sheets to contain profiles along the left and right flowlines of curbs, and sometimes along the centerline as well.

It is not possible to do this with alignments that are created at flowline, because they will have incorrect stationing. The left and right profiles must be created on the centerline alignment.

Of course, this means that the grades in the Profile View will not be exactly right going around curves, because the the arc length along flowline is greater than centerline on the outside of the curve, and less than centerline on the inside of the curve. But that's usually not significant.

If you create three profiles for center, left, and right, There is currently no way built-in to C3D to link the three profiles, so edits to centerline are reflected in the left/right profiles.

[sinc]

I have now released the new version of the Sincpac-C3D, which allows you to dynamically link Profile PVIs to other C3D entities.

However, I unfortunately realize now that the current implementation won't help with this problem. It will let you link PVIs in the Right/Left Profiles to the Centerline Profile, but the Right/Left PVIs will get their elevation from the Profile elevation at centerline, instead of the PVI elevation. I need to add an option so that you can configure a link to use the PVI elevation, instead of the Profile elevation.

That should be relatively easy to fix, and I'll post a new version in the near future that takes care of that problem. I'll also add something that will move the Right/Left PVIs horizontally to match the centerline PVI, should you move the centerline PVI to a different station. I'll also add a command to automatically generate the links along the entire length of the roadway, because right now each link must be created individually at each PVI. Now that the Dynamic Link framework is in the Sincpac-C3D, these should be relatively easy additions. So stay tuned; shortly, this should be a very easy task...

[dmanning]

This is not a requirement in my area so I may be coming into this a too ignorant so help me fill in the gaps.

What I understand is that we need to show the centerline design and the left/right profile on the the same profile view? Would someone post an example of this so that we have a visual reference of what we want to accomplish?

If you use Corridor>Utilities>Create alignment from corridor you can get an alignment at the ETW (flowline or any feature) and create a profile of the surface you created from the corridor and superimpose that profile (along the ETW or flowline) on to the centerline profile, or any profile for that matter. You won't be able to label geometry points though so that may not work in your situation.

Does this sound like a solution?

[sinc]

C3D 2009 provides some support for this. In C3D 2009, it's called "Stacked Profiles".

Depending on your locale, you might need to show a three-line profile, with centerline, left FL, and right FL profiles, or maybe just a two-line profile of the right and left FL profiles.

The usual way to do this is in a single grid, but offset, so that the three (or two) profiles do not overlap each other, even though they are typically at roughly the same elevation. For example, the left Profile would be on the top, then an inch or so below that is the centerline, then an inch or so below that is the right.

Attached is an image created straight out of the Profile-8.dwg sample drawing that ships with the C3D tutorials. I didn't clean it up or anything, I just let it display using the style Autodesk had in there (which isn't particularly great, but should illustrate the idea).

In order to create this, an Alignment is created down the centerline of the road. Then all three Profiles - CL, left, and right - are created on the road Alignment. All three profiles have actual profile information, including profile curve data, etc. However, all curve lengths and slopes are calculated using the centerline stationing, which means that the real-world grade might vary slightly on the outside or inside of curves.

The problem in C3D is that when you create something like this, all three Profiles are independent. So if you edit your centerline Profile, you must also go through and edit the Left and Right Profiles as well.

[jason.williams]

Here's a sample sheet of our typical plan and profile, we are currently doing two methods and will compare to see which is more efficient.

Thanks for the help, we will look into the Sinc3d program

[dsimons]

As you can see with this subdivision, we too have three layers of profiles... 1 - Center, 2- Left Top Of Curb, 3- Right top of Curb. We also show the top of curb through the intersection aligning to the adjacent street (see detail).

I used a lot of Microstation and GeoPak when I was a DOT Engineer. It seemed more user friendly with intersections. You would think that since Autodesk is trying to sell themselves to the DOTs they would spend more time and effort coming up with a solution to this. I posed this question on why Autodesk didn't think it important to Dana Probert during one of her seminars in San Diego back in 2006. Not her problem really, but it really irked me that they would ignore such a large segment of the civil design community with something as important as intersections.

Have you tried the Cooridor Ezy program?

http://www.rsteltman.com/cez_downloads.html

I purchased it and it seems to make it easier to solve alignment and profiles at intersections, knuckles, and cul-de-sacs but still doesn't do anything with combining profiles at the Top of Curb at the intersections. The other problem I am still having is the cross gutter situation. I am having to go through each intersection and use feature lines to edit the surface... doesn't help with the x-sections and profiles though. Any suggestions on cross gutters?

[sinc]

OK, I got the new version released. There is an example of the dynamic PVI links near the bottom of this page (Example 3):

http://www.quux.biz/SincpacC3D_Help/SP_DLProfiles.htm

Once you link the PVIs, you can drag a centerline PVI around horizontally and/or vertically, and the linked PVIs will follow it.

I can see some other tools will also be handy, such as one that will auto-generate the left and right profiles (complete with linked PVIs) from the centerline. I'll try to get that into the next release.

[sinc]

As you can see with this subdivision, we too have three layers of profiles... 1 - Center, 2- Left Top Of Curb, 3- Right top of Curb. We also show the top of curb through the intersection aligning to the adjacent street (see detail).
. . .
I am having to go through each intersection and use feature lines to edit the surface... doesn't help with the x-sections and profiles though. Any suggestions on cross gutters?

I've been looking at your PDFs, and trying to figure out what's happening. It looks like your left and right TC profiles drop down to flowline at the intersections...? Is that what you're doing? Then how do the curb return profiles and D/4 labels get in there? Is that the part you are adding manually? How are you doing that? Are they simply lines you drew on top of the Profile View yourself, or something else?

[ewarford]

I have been trying to figure out how to show my left and right top of curb lines in my center line profile. Can this be done? In LDD I used the vertical editor and copied my center line into L1 and R1 and then changed the elevation globaly to represent the top of curb. Can this be done in Civil 3D or is there a way to show my left and right top of curb in the same profile as my center line with the correct tangents and veritcal curves?

[sinc]

Yes, create your centerline profile, then right-click on it and select "Edit Profile Geometry" from the list. Then use the "Copy Profile" button in the "Edit Profile Geometry" toolbar to create your copies for left and right.

It's at this point that you have three Profiles all on the same Alignment, just as in LDT, but the three Profiles are not connected to each other. So if you edit Centerline, you must also edit your Left and Right Profiles (unless you have the Sincpac-C3D, which can link the three Profiles).

[dsimons]

I've been looking at your PDFs, and trying to figure out what's happening. It looks like your left and right TC profiles drop down to flowline at the intersections...? Is that what you're doing? Then how do the curb return profiles and D/4 labels get in there? Is that the part you are adding manually? How are you doing that? Are they simply lines you drew on top of the Profile View yourself, or something else?

That is correct. We hold the top of curb profile through the curb in this jurisdiction. We are having to hand enter the D/4 points. It is actually really stupid they provide this D/4 calculator that you have to provide the actuall calculations for each intersection. What is the point of using programs such as C3D then.

They call it the planer method. I have attached the spread sheet the City provides and a detail explaining it in case you are unfamiliar with it. It is pretty simple but very not the best way to design the intersection.

The problem is showning the actuall section through the gutter and the plan view correctly in C3D. It would almost be easier to allow for C3D to find plan view enteties and draw what you want.... kinda like the roadway function that attached to a Pline for a link. Any suggestions?