Turn off AutoJoin

[wfrst2008]

Hi
Anybody knows how to turn off the automatically join function
between concrete elements ?
Or is it possible to just turn off auto join between Column with Slab ?
Use unjoin tool is tedious and time consuming.

thanks
Fung

[Jos Arpink]

I'd be interested in this as well. With all the improvements in RS2009, I find that this particular enhancement is actually a step backwards.

To the developers:
If we must have this feature for those who rely on it, there should be a check-box somewhere that allows the rest of us to disable it. (pls & thx in advance)

[m20roxxers]

I'm thinking a simple 1 or 0 option in the Revit.ini File would olve the issue for those who love it and those who hate it.

[jrichardson]

I would like to pipe in and agree to this just to keep the conversation going and so we can continue to improve the software so we can use it efficiently. I acknowledge that everyone may require the software to work differently. A switch of some sort for the project environment or a specific company environment might help make it more usable amongst the various user's needs.

The auto join certainly seems to make for more work. The way that concrete columns are joined and cut to walls and slabs makes GCS almost unusable. With a lot of unjoining and rejoining we can get them to clean up to be somewhat presentable but not near as well as they looked in 2008.

Also if you model a concrete column to the top of the slab and Revit auto joins/cuts the column the bottom of the slab it shows the column correctly, but does not report the actually location of the column in the top offset of the column in the properties. If this column is shown cut to the bottom of the slab as well as shown cut in the GCS I would expect its properties to say where the top of the column is located. For example if the slab is 8" thick and the column is to Level 2 top of slab, the top offset of the column should be attached to Level 2 with a top offset of 0’-8". Currently Revit will not display this way. It says it is attached to Level 2 with a 0'-0" offset, but does not display the column as this. To me this just seems inaccurate.

Also the auto join will cut the column out in a slab on grade situation. This is almost never true. The column is usually placed first and the slab on grade is poured around it. Just setting a rule for a column to always cut a slab or a slab to always cut a column is not good enough. Depending on the type of slab (slab on grade, composite, PT, Flat Plate, Pan & Joist, etc) the cut/join properties of a column to slab or slab to column may be different.

These are just a few of the things that we encounter with the new autojoin features.

jamie

[chad_lueptow]

The dominant element has much to do with the order of operations
(which is modeled first, second, etc.) and in some cases by type.
It's not very straight forward....

See Revit Structure 2009 User's Guide > Working with Structural Components > Working with Concrete > Concrete Geometry Joins >

Maybe there is something you can change with the order of operations
to get Revit to do what you want?

[Jos Arpink]

Thanks Jamie. I agree completely with your comments. In my opinion, whether it's walls versus columns or slabs versus columns, columns should win. The other element should be voided by the column.

And from a materials point of view, the column's reported volume is compromised by auto-join. This negatively impacts the integrity of the data we try to pull out of our models.

Ditto for concrete beams. I think this is bad BIM behaviour and I would really like to be able to turn it off.

[kmarsh]

Hi All,

Thanks for your posts and feedback on this Revit Structure 2009 feature. It sounds like this might be a bit of a pain point for some of you.

To help us with our initial understand of the issue:

1. Can you share your thoughts on aspects of the Revit Structure 2009 Automatic Concrete Join behavior that you find beneficial?

2. Can you share your thoughts on the Revit Structure 2008 Automatic Concrete Join behavior vs. the option of turning it completely off? What are the pros and cons?

I cannot promise anything here but will definitely make sure that this issue is forwarded to our Product Design and Development groups. Your feedback will be helpful for them as they look into this issue.

Thanks,
-Ken

[djn]

I think that the auto join of concrete beam to concrete slabs in 2009 was a huge time saver for us over the 2008 way of going around and picking each beam and joining it to the slab. The joining of columns and wall (vertical elements) I don't find as quite as useful, and like mentioned above it really screws up the look of the GCS.

I think the problem is that when you are dealing with cast in place concrete there 2 areas that make it hard to model. 1 is how to classify the elements in the building. For instance a concrete curb that runs along the outside of a slab is that a wall or and upturned concrete beam, and because some of these elements will be all cast together how do you define what is what. The 2nd is because of the way we define elements, and for ease of modeling there tends to be an overlap of material. Which Revit has made an attempt at compensating for. In the case of concrete columns we model them from floor to floor and Revit will automatically join them with the slab. The slab being the controlling member, and shorting the column, taking the overlap of material out of the column. This is technically correct, and reflects the way it will be built, for most cases, although not all.

So what I think Revit needs is 1 to be able to control the heirachy of elements, and 2 a tool similar to "edit wall joins" where you can cycle through different configurations for what material is taken out of what element.

[Jshaver]

"....where you can cycle through different configurations for what material is taken out of what element."

Well said, we should be able to turn off the autojoining of masonry walls and concrete beams. When you have a masonry wall attached to the underside of a slab supported by a beam, the beam is cut by the wall. If you are not showing masonry walls below then you are left with a hole in your concrete beam in plan ;(. Manually unjoining elements one by one is very tedious.

[Jos Arpink]

Ken, thanks for escalating this issue.

I would favour a rules-based hierarchical approach as well...such as something under Structural Settings where we can tell Revit the default join-behaviour between columns and beams and walls and floors. We could then unjoin/override where needed.

Given such a feature, I'd choose to have the beams and columns win-out over slabs and walls when it comes to voiding the other element. Generally speaking, the supporting element would win-out over the element being supported.

[Clarification] We like the greater control over wall/wall joins and beam/beam joins in RS2009 so we don't mind that they auto-join to each other the way that they do. For now, we would like the option to disable autojoins between different family categories such as beams/floors, columns/walls, etc.

One thing that does not seem to be participating in the join behaviour/join display between elements of the same category is whether or not they share the same material. CMU vs CIP walls come to mind...this would be a nice refinement down the road.

[m20roxxers]

I agree with djn, though I disagree it should be a structural settings option.

What about an option similar to the cover option where you set the hierarchy for objects and apply a different option to different instance elements at a time. So you could select all concrete beams in most cases to the auto join to slab option, while setting different area's to different options or different options to different objects?? Though it might be a little more tedious.

A default would be great but allowing us to build a few seperate options for beams, slabs, foundations, slab edges, and columns would be great for material handling and overall look and design of the building.

[chad_lueptow]

I wonder how this order of operations/automatic joining affects the "beam reinforcing" in the extensions manager that Autodesk now controls? Now that we have both tools I hope they work together......one step forward.......two steps back.

[REVIT_MONKEY]

I'm pretty new to Revit so I don't know if this will work for concrete but when I don't want beams or walls to join to other elements I select the element and right click the blue dot and select disallow join.

Hope this helps.