Help!!! Can't acheive the wall design I need with Revit!!!

[kim.74445]

I need help with a wall that I am trying to modify. What I need to do is create this wall on an angle so that the base of the wall is at one point and then the top sketch of the wall is offset back a certain distance (say 2'), to give the wall an angle. The wall I am referring to is shown in red in the attached sketch. I know that I can do this with massing, but I want to be able to have all of my edit options available and I will not have that if I create this using a mass, so I want to know if there is a way to do this by editing the top wall sketch of this curved element. Please help ASAP!!!

Thank You!!!

[Munkholm]

Create an inplace wall (Basic / Component / Create in place / Choose wall) and model it as a sweep.

[cliff collins]

No--you currently can not edit the profile of a curved wall--I have put this on the Wishlist
some time ago---have not seen it yet on Wishlist Active voting cycle......

So--you could build a separate wall family, make a generic model and convert faces to walls, etc.---I know these are "workarounds", but that's about all you can do for now.


Cheers....

[kim.74445]

I was actually able to use the inplace wall option to acheive this and use the blend rather than the sweep option to get my angled wall. I am still having a problem with the windows in it since they don't follow the slope of the wall, but my guess is I'd have to create a seperate family file for the window and actually angle the model components of that in order to get it to follow the angle of the wall.

Thanks for your quick replies and your help!

[jeffh]

[QUOTE=cliff collins;904530]No--you currently can not edit the profile of a curved wall--I have put this on the Wishlist
some time ago---have not seen it yet on Wishlist Active voting cycle......
QUOTE]

You can use an "inplace family" void to modify the profile of a wall curved in plan.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=3822646&linkID=9243099

[cliff collins]

Jeff,

Yes--but this is yet another "workaround"--not a real wall editing function.

If the radius of the wall changes, can the in-place void adapt?
probably not--so we are now chasing the voids around.

Seems trivial for one isolated curved wall, as in the poster's example.
But what if we have 50 or 100 or more curved walls in a project?
(we often do.) LOL

I wonder if there is a programming issue with making the edit profile tool
for curved walls difficult for the Factory?--or just not high on the popularity list?

So, in the end, this still gets a thumbs down....

cheers......

[ptranberg]

Hi
The other answers are right!
Yes, it is a workaround but it is the way to go. Create a parametric mass, given parameters to controle the radius. When you then use the Wall by Face, you can thoose your Wall Type ex. a multicomponent wall type. When your radius changes, you simply controle your parameters and remake your Wall, select the Wall and click Remake. Then Group the Wall and copy it to the 50-100 instances. IMPORTANT!! Do not delete the. Mass.

Regards
Peter

[sbrown]

What does the top of the wall need to do? if it is just slope you can attach the top to a sloped ref. plane. If its curve you create the wall taller than they need to be, then use a void extrusion to cut them the shape you want.

If you had multiple instances of this shape and they all varied you would create a mass family with the parameters you wish to beable to change per instance, then use pick face to create the walls, then if you wanted a change you would edit the family and remake the walls.

[cliff collins]

The point is: (as the original poster inquired)

Why can we NOT have a tool to Edit Profile of curved walls?
This would make everyone's life a bit easier, agreed?

Still, I commend the responders' offerings of "workarounds"--these methods are creative and will work with the current limitations of the software.

That said, it seems very common that in situations like this, we have the end-users/power users come up with "fixes" for apparently difficult problems--instead of the Factory focusing programming effort on them. The "fixes" are often very laborious, overly complicated, and very counter-intuitive, even to experienced users. IMO, it would be better to offer simple, robust modeling tools that even beginners can easily use. Try getting a new user to use some of the "workaround" methods which have been suggested....

I know the way to get new tools implemented is to post as Wishlist items--which I have done for this very issue, with no result so far......

cheers.......

[connect]

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[kingjosiah]

...trying to create a Mitered-Corner Window? In this week’s Rockstar Hour...


forgive me Will, but i'm not seeing the connection to the OP's question. I've joined a few of your webinars (CVIS and present) in the past and found them very helpful, but this post seems to be a thinly veiled, if that, plug for your new venture. Perhaps start a new thread in the Tutorials forum? I'm sure you'll find many interested listeners....

- Jon

[twiceroadsfool]

The point is: (as the original poster inquired)

Why can we NOT have a tool to Edit Profile of curved walls?
This would make everyone's life a bit easier, agreed?

Still, I commend the responders' offerings of "workarounds"--these methods are creative and will work with the current limitations of the software.

That said, it seems very common that in situations like this, we have the end-users/power users come up with "fixes" for apparently difficult problems--instead of the Factory focusing programming effort on them. The "fixes" are often very laborious, overly complicated, and very counter-intuitive, even to experienced users. IMO, it would be better to offer simple, robust modeling tools that even beginners can easily use. Try getting a new user to use some of the "workaround" methods which have been suggested....

I know the way to get new tools implemented is to post as Wishlist items--which I have done for this very issue, with no result so far......

cheers.......


Im not asking to be facetious, but im genuinely curious: How would you expect this tool to work?

Currently, when you hit Edit Profile on a FLAT wall, you get a profile PLANE to sketch on, and it alters the wall. What do you want to sketch on, and how do you anticipate it working, for a curved wall? A curved work plane? So if i tell it to draw a line going up at a 45 degree angle, is it supposed to do that while it wraps around the curve? Then (IF you can figure out the mathematics to make that work, and good luck...) i forsee two major problems:

1. How is the cursor going to work? Depending on the minutia of whatever view youre in, you could be drawing that line at a ton of different angles/wraps as you proceed around the curve.

2. What happens when someone ELSE thinks the tool should work on a FLAT plane? IE: I want to draw an arch in ELEVATION and have it rip through the curved wall? (This is how the *workaround* works currently.

Plus, to a methematical extent... take a flat drawing of something, and wrap it on a curved wall, then try to document it for detailing. To determine the amount of points that will be technically "indeterminate" would probably take 30 sheets.

Im only bringing these questions up because ive heard this request before, but ive NEVER understood how its supposed to work...

And "connect," very not cool. :(

[jeffh]

Im not asking to be facetious, but im genuinely curious: How would you expect this tool to work?

Currently, when you hit Edit Profile on a FLAT wall, you get a profile PLANE to sketch on, and it alters the wall. What do you want to sketch on, and how do you anticipate it working, for a curved wall? A curved work plane? So if i tell it to draw a line going up at a 45 degree angle, is it supposed to do that while it wraps around the curve? Then (IF you can figure out the mathematics to make that work, and good luck...) i forsee two major problems:

1. How is the cursor going to work? Depending on the minutia of whatever view youre in, you could be drawing that line at a ton of different angles/wraps as you proceed around the curve.

2. What happens when someone ELSE thinks the tool should work on a FLAT plane? IE: I want to draw an arch in ELEVATION and have it rip through the curved wall? (This is how the *workaround* works currently.

Plus, to a methematical extent... take a flat drawing of something, and wrap it on a curved wall, then try to document it for detailing. To determine the amount of points that will be technically "indeterminate" would probably take 30 sheets.

Im only bringing these questions up because ive heard this request before, but ive NEVER understood how its supposed to work...

And "connect," very not cool. :(


Aaron, I think you have hit on the problems associated with being able to edit the profile on a wall curved in plan. I am not saying it is impossible to figure out how to do, but there are some significant challenges to user interface and how Revit wants to define work plane for sketches.

Technically I am not sure how difficult it would be, but from a UI standpoint alone it might contain considerable challenges.

[cliff collins]

I do not claim to have the answers to the questions.

Curved Work Planes would be good.

Just for fun, how would a Contractor build such a curved wall, with a sloped top?
How would the builder lay it out in the field? If he can do it in the field, Revit should be able to do it on-screen 1st. ( I think we could easily model such a wall in 3dMax.)

Take a look at "blobitecture" projects by Gehry, etc.
Catia looks like it can easily handle these problems......
So can Rhino, Form-Z, etc.

I don't know HOW the software would do this--that is the programmers' territory.

I just keep seeing "workarounds", which are very complicated, for a lot of modeling deficiencies in Revit.

Cheers....

[twiceroadsfool]

Cliff, as a former user, i can assure you of two things:

1. You are absolutely correct. Gehry's software CAN handle shapes like this.

2. The complexity of the tools and the interface in that piece of software, NECESSARY for those kinds of functions, would have half of the users here going back to AutoCAD full time.

And, saying *Curved work planes would be good* is a great solution, but how does it WORK. How do you address the fact that working in elevation and/or axon provides you with no hard PLANE to work on, so how to you accurately USE such a workplane?

A sloping top os one thing, but im addressing specifically being able to Edit a curved walls profile. I think the sloping top is less of an issue with Swept Blend. Wall by face on a swept blend will do a sloped top in circular plan...

And how the contractor would build it is REALLY only half the question: If our documention is garbage on such a wall, is he building it with ease because theyre taking liberties with the specific amount of slope and are *fudging* it? Anyone can EYEBALL a sloped curved wall, lol...

Id love the ability too, but im not sure how i would want it to work. Its easy to say i want a vehicle that gets unlimited miles per gallon, but unless i articulate that i want a CAR that does it, GM will just point me to my bicycle. We need to know HOW this tool needs to work for the ARCHITECTURE, before we can get mad that we dont have it.

Otherwise, were going to get something useless to us.

[sbrown]

the swept blend tool is exactly intended to address a curved wall with a sloping top. Its a 3 step simple process. Draw the path, draw the height of the wall at the low point, then the profile at the endpoint. Finish sketch. This would work with your sloped walls too. I would do 1/2 the shape then mirror.

[cliff collins]

Agreed--garbage in = garbage out. But---
I wonder how hard, or if at all, the Factory has looked at this?

My point about the Contractor is this: We can give him a 2D elevation, created
from the "workaround" method in Revit. But he still has to lay it out, and cut it in the field,
per our documents. If this can be done manually in the real world, our software should be able to do it virtually.

Imagine this:

- A curved wall in plan.
- A simple front elevation
- A simple purple sketch line, in the front elevation--( "projected" onto the curved wall, if you will.) Give it a target elevation at the ends of the wall, maybe at other points along the way.
- Sketch away. Finish sketch. Revit cuts the shape out of the curved wall.

This does not seem too difficult?

I'm not complaining--just asking the Factory to at least give it a try-then give feedback on
WHY it can not be done, etc.

Cheers....

[twiceroadsfool]

Imagine this:

- A curved wall in plan.
- A simple front elevation
- A simple purple sketch line, in the front elevation--( "projected" onto the curved wall, if you will.) Give it a target elevation at the ends of the wall, maybe at other points along the way.
- Sketch away. Finish sketch. Revit cuts the shape out of the curved wall.

Cheers....


I am imagining it, but you dont see why it doesnt work? Have you ever manually hand drafted an elevation or a section through a Spiral Staircase?

Draw a quick one in plan (or in Autocad) and start projecting the lines down to make an elevation.

Your purple line sketch "projected" on the curved wall would be impossible to edit. Because everytime you move left or right in the *sketch* the amount of *distance* you cover on the WALL surface is changing. LITERALLY it wont work that way.

Unless, of course, were talking about taking a FLAT sketch, and just puhsing is straight through the wall without wrapping, which is WHAT the workaround does, lol...

Any my point about the contractor is a simple one: Youre saying if he can do it, we should be able to. My ponit is, id like verification hes actually doing it, and not fudging it. We can *fudge it* now too...

[cliff collins]

Could it be possible to create a curved reference plane? Why not?
Then could you not sketch lines which "stick" to the curved reference plane?
(I can draw with crayons on a curved wall.) If I carefully measure and lay our some points on the curved wall, then connect the dots.......

Sounds like a NURBS surface/compund curve limitation of the software? Hmmmm

Again, lots of other ( and in some cases less costly) software can do this.

Just my challenge for the Factory to at least give it a try?

Cheers....

[twiceroadsfool]

I guess my point is, a lot of other pieces of less costly software dont have the task of documenting those objects, which means they can me more free-spirited with how they let those objects get created.

Sketch lines "sticking" to the surface automatically is great... But it implies some sort of snap, or some sort of computation by which it decides where on the curve youre drawing. i can see a lot ot ticked off Revit users when they get an imported DWG and try to trace it on a curved wall, and all the dims are impossible fractions, and the lines wont *snap* where they want.

I guess thats all im getting at, but its a moot point. Id like to see it too, id just like to know how we would want it, first.

I know a lot of people get down on Revit and its shortcomings, but its a strange thing. To document in systems, the way it does, things have to be based on rules. If we want new tools, to an extent they have to play within those rules. Take Push/Pull in sketchup. People RAVE about push pull. "I want push pull in revit, revit stinks!"

But what do you want push pull to do? MOVE your walls? STRETCH your walls? THICKEN your walls? You can do anything you want in sketchup, cuz its all fluff. I guess thats just how im trying to look at the OP's post, and the one on Curved walls and profiles.

Its great to say some other software can do it. But can it do it, do it accurately, and let us document it? Otherwise, its just a pretty picture, and pretty pictures get RFI's without cohesive documentation.

[cliff collins]

Aaron,

Agreed>

However, the Swept Blend tool is accurate, right? So Revit is "doing the math" already?

If it can do this, it can probably do the "edit profile of curved wall" with similar computations?

(I don't even want to start on the Sketchup thing.....)

FYI--I'm probably one of the most avid Revit users around
25 years in Architecture, etc....I just like to "push the envelope".

Good discussion--appreciate what you are saying, and agree that it is
probably difficult, or even impossible to create every tool for every modelling task,
along with BIM power.

cheers....