Window limitations - What to do?

[Chad Smith]

99% of the projects done here require Windows that go from ground to ceiling and are located between two perpendicular walls. i.e. There is no host wall for the window.

We have window families made from the Generic template and then changed to the Window category. These work just fine up until the point they are scheduled. Unlike hosted windows, the non-hosted ones do not recognise the 'From Room' and 'To Room' fields. Even if they are between walls creating a closed room.

We certainly aren't going to place a wall to host the windows due to there being far too many windows/walls that will need to be coordinated.
Curtain Walls are an issue as there is a danger of the length parameter not reading the correct value depending on whether the ends have been Disjoined or not. It's also impossible to update similar windows of the same type.

So I am in a bit of a dilema. Curtain Walls don't offer flexibility and accuracy, and non-hosted Windows don't work properly like hosted ones.

How are others dealing with large non-hosted windows and getting the full benefits of what Windows should offer?
I fear the simple answer is that Autodesk needs to make Windows 'Room Bounding'.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Chad,
Until windows are room bounding I believe your answer still employs curtain walls.
Create each window (curtain wall) as required and disable all wall joins at the end conditions. This will ensure that correct lengths are always reported in your schedule.
Save each mullion/muntin arrangement as a separate type. This allows you to use a wall tag to tag them using the type mark parameter.
Group each type and copy around the project as required. This will allow you to swap each window group for group as you would window families.
The curtain walls remain room bounding, they can be scheduled and they can be easily modified throught the project.
the only drawback is that you can't create a legend showing the window/walls in elevation but that can easily be worked around using elelvation views.

[Chad Smith]

Group each type and copy around the project as required. This will allow you to swap each window group for group as you would window families.
This won't work for us as a single window type might be used 20 times in a project, and each instance is typically a different size. Currently all windows are instance driven due to the high level of variability in size.


the only drawback is that you can't create a legend showing the window/walls in elevation but that can easily be worked around using elelvation views.That's ok. I don't use Legends as they are too inflexible.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

This won't work for us as a single window type might be used 20 times in a project, and each instance is typically a different size. Currently all windows are instance driven due to the high level of variability in size.


So they aren't 'types' then in the Revit sense ;)
If each is different then how is using curtain wall, and creating a new type each time, any harder than using unique instances of a window family (other than just being able to vary parameters)? You still wouldn't be able to make any global edits to a window family right?

Just re-read your post and was wondering if these are interior conditions you are referring to?

[crispin.schurr]

We've given up completely on exterior door / window families as every project has very different complex aluminium joinery configurations.

Instead we now use curtain walls, with custom curtain panels that hold door leafs or window sashes either singularly or in pairs. Means you can whip up a configuration as fast as you can design it. Also works with the process of the evolution of a design as we often just show windows etc as a glass wall in the early concept stages, which can then be refined with mullions etc added on the fly.

We group the curtain walls dis-allowing end joins, and add a face based family containing a nested sphere as a window or door "marker". This marker can then carry the window / door information to allow scheduling / tagging, and copies around with the group. The marker has a subcategory to allow it to be turned off for printing.

Its a complete workaround (we're no beginners when it comes to family generation) but it's fast and works.

C

[Chad Smith]

So they aren't 'types' then in the Revit sense ;)
Yes, they are Types in the Revit sense ;). They contain quite a few Type parameters which dictates how the Window looks. In fact the only parameters that aren't Type based are the Width and Height.

Check out the attached screenshot.
Each window shown is exactly the same Type. They share common traits such as the width of the hopper windows = 900, the sill of the bottom hopper = 1050, the hoppers are of equal height, and the sliding door and fixed pane are of equal width.
Throughout a project, the windows of a single Type might vary in width and height by just 10mm up to a couple of 100mm.

The Windows are scheduled with 'Itemise every Instance', but Grouped by Type. The Window manufacturer looks at the schedule and can immediately see that a window of a particular Type has a set quantity of permutations. Sample attached.

Now, if the window design changes and using the example in the screenshot again, say the hopper sill needs to be 900 instead of 1050, this is easily changed. Something that you can't do easily with Curtain Walls.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

OK... not the way I would look at it but to each his own. :beer:
Short of placing a room boundary line at each window (or just making your exterior walls all non bounding and using a perimeter line all around) what about Crispin's suggestion?

[mruehr]

I have to agree with Dimitri
Not really a Type
If the size changes the cost Changes the Cutlist changes
the Type is different.
A Door with different Width is a different type
Exchanging Panels With Window Panels then Grouping the Assembly like Crispin is what i would do.

my 5 cent

[dbaldacchino]

At the risk of being egged for this obscene workaround....if you want a "room-bounding" window, could you build your windows using a door family template and use some parameter to filter between real doors and "fake" doors?

[Chad Smith]

Wouldn't you still be left with the exact same issue of having a non-hosted family that isn't room bounding?

[Steve_Stafford]

The image of the "windows" that aren't could be three types of curtain walls, two nested in the larger parent (see image). I must be dense...why don't windows work? If I make a window as tall as the wall Revit doesn't mind. If you place a host wall it shouldn't be hard to keep them coordinated since moving adjacent walls would cause the host to move/change as well. The risk is that the window doesn't resize? Whatever you do based on the current slate of options you are facing something to chase. Seems that hosted windows is the "lesser" of evils?

[mruehr]

Another Obscene Workaround
Make them Hosted and sent the Host via Phases to the Future or Past

[dbaldacchino]

Duh, scratch that.

Why are you opposed to creating a wall to host your windows in? Where's the coordination effort? I must be missing something.

Grouped curtainwalls might be the option I'd opt for. But then again we don't schedule "to" and "from" for windows or doors, so I can understand if that leaves you with missing info.

[Chad Smith]

A couple of things I have noticed with hosted Windows.

Having to model a wall just to place a window in exactly the same location is insane.
The host wall will only coordinate automatically when against other walls. Probably 80% of the windows butt against concrete Columns, which results in no automatic wall coordination.
When a Window sits in exactly the same location as the wall, the wall is no longer selectable in plan for coordination.
When in elevation and the window's height is amended to match the host wall, the host wall tends to shift forward/back in plan.
Window Frame linework at the ends of the windows disappear when lined up with the end of the wall.The attached image will give you an idea of the shear number of walls/windows that would need to be coordinated and monitored to make sure the host walls aren't playing funny buggers.

I still use hosted windows, I'm certainly not opposed to them as they are certainly easier to use, but they have their place in a project.