Graphics Legends - showing membrane layers

[3dway]

I was trying to assemble a wall type legend and I noticed a few things

1 - Membrane layers don't show. This is a problem since they're the really important things to show in a graphic wall type legend so the contractor can't forget them

2- I can dimension or snap to any of the layers of a wall legend component. It almost works like a regular drawing, but not quite. Not sure why not.

I was able to use the nice NMS or CIS type material keynoting. I'd like to be able to gang note a wall assembly. How do you do this?

[dhurtubise]

I still use a phase after the project to do legends.

[3dway]

That sounds good.
Where can I find further info on that.
I'll do a search here. I am ashamed to admit that I posted this withouth searching yesterday at the end of the dayt.

[azmz3]

Another way would be to use detail components for the legend and build them that way. I know we have done that in our office recently, and they came out good.

[dhurtubise]

Exactly that would work. What i don't like with that method is that when the family change you have to manually change de detail component :-(

[3dway]

Using detail components would be like referencing in CAD linework or Revit drafting lines alone right?

I assume there is an option to put in a detail component instead of a legen component.

[twiceroadsfool]

I still use a phase after the project to do legends.

I second this method... Although Daniel, you did point out to me once that a Phase BEFORE the project worked a little better... :)

[eric.gelinas]

Hello people,

I'm working out some basic architectural graphics and I'm splitting my hair to figure out how to build a dynamic wall legend with membrane layers. I'm thinking doing them in a drafting view, but I think I could only insert it once in my sheets. If someone has an idea, I'm ready to try it out, and figure out how to built this one. It seems so basic, I'm sure I missed something... I try all types of tags and nip nada nothing worked. I need to build stacked wall description and a tag showing the wall code.

Thank you for your inputs.

You can find the attachement to see where i'm heading.

[twiceroadsfool]

As Daniel explained, make a Phase before or after the project "timeline". Model the wall there, use a section through it. Dimension, annotate, tag, whatever. Use dependent views if you need it on more than one sheet, and want them all to stay updatable...

If you use Phase AFTER, make sure its clear of the extents of the project.
If you use Phase BEFORE, make sure there is also a "Phase Before DEMO" phase to get rid of the objects...

[3dway]

Sounds good.
Now we're going to have to ask about phase naming standards.
Given the dialogue boxes where I see them, I'm guessing short one work explanations are best. These never appear on drawings do they? They're just info for the user?

So a phase called "legends", then "delete legends", then existing" then "demolition", then "New"

I actually found a use for a demolition phase which would not show on the drawigns though this thread is about legends not phases.

[arqt49]

I actually found a use for a demolition phase which would not show on the drawigns though this thread is about legends not phases.

Why not create those temporary legend objects and demolish them in the same temporary phase?
You do not need a new phase just for demolish.
That way they do not interfere with the remaining project phases.

[twiceroadsfool]

Your naming convention is exactly what we do. Ours go like this:

Annotation 1
Annotation 2
------------------
Existing
Phase 1
Phase 2


We use the "---------" phase for the demolition. I use two annotation phases because sometimes i want to show stuff in a legend as Existing... So that means that i put it in the Annotation 1 phase, and set the *legend* to Annotation 2, Show previous and New, etc...

Theyll never appear on drawings, as long as no one on the project team sets a view to show those phases.

What i ALSO do is set up ONE 3D axon view, to Phase "-----------", set to Show Previous and Demo.

Its a safety check. When you go in that View, EVERYTHING should be demolished. If you ever see anything that isnt, demo it. That is your QC for making sure nothing gets quantified or scheduled or included in your project accidentally.

Also worth mentioning, this plays a little havoc with any 3rd party add ons that dont respect phasing, like old versions of Espec. (Not sure about current version)

[greg.mcdowell]

Nice... I'm going to give that a whirl. Thanks!

[twiceroadsfool]

Why not create those temporary legend objects and demolish them in the same temporary phase?
You do not need a new phase just for demolish.
That way they do not interfere with the remaining project phases.

In theory it would work as well... As long as you use a Phase Filter that doesnt ovveride "temporary" objects to look different.

We use our Legends to show certain things as existing representations, some as new, some as demolished, etc... So its the ONLY time we include a PHASE for demolishing. Its just a buffer zone for us to clean out the content from the legends, without it touching the actual project.

I suppose TECHNICALLY we could demolish it during the EXISTING Phase, because by the nature of Existing, we will never show "Show previous and Demo" of the existing phase... lol.

[arqt49]

In theory it would work as well... As long as you use a Phase Filter that doesnt ovveride "temporary" objects to look different.


I call the phase filter "Temporary", to use in the first phase that I call "Temporary" also.

Maybe in 2010 we'll get Tags and dimensions in legend symbols and discard the dummy phases.

[3dway]

Thanks guys. Really good stuff in here.
TWF I think the AUGI community should send you a holiday basket. Actually there's a handful of regulars that deserve a lot of thanks for the information they relay here on a regular basis.

Yours truly,
The department of redundancy department.

[twaldock]

I was searching to find out why I can't tag my wall "Legend components" - I don't see an answer in this thread. BUT, I notice the discussions about using phasing to stop your little sections of wall showing up in the main model. To avoid those complications, we have always created a "Wall legend" workset which is OFF by default in all views, which sounds a lot less complicated than phasing.
Then again, you could also try a design option which is off in all views except your wall legend view.
Better still, Autodesk could enable tags in real Legends, and show the membranes.

[Scott Womack]

Better still, Autodesk could enable tags in real Legends, and show the membranes.

Out of curiosity, if the Factory enabled legend components to be "tagged as you suggest, how would you ever be able to create a legend which is a "graphical legend of symbols? If you can tag objects in legends, you'd no longer be able to place a tag as a symbol to show what it would look like.

I understand the desire to be able to have "live" tags in some legends, but my guess is that it is not as easy, nor as clear cut to program this as everyone (non-programmers) seem to think it is.

[twiceroadsfool]

I was searching to find out why I can't tag my wall "Legend components" - I don't see an answer in this thread. BUT, I notice the discussions about using phasing to stop your little sections of wall showing up in the main model. To avoid those complications, we have always created a "Wall legend" workset which is OFF by default in all views, which sounds a lot less complicated than phasing.
Then again, you could also try a design option which is off in all views except your wall legend view.
Better still, Autodesk could enable tags in real Legends, and show the membranes.

Twald- Those solutions will work as well... As long as you dont do any material takeoffs, wall schedules, quantities of those objects, etc. Thats why some of us elect to make sure theyre actually *gone* (demolished) before the project phases start.

Scott- I hear you, loud and clear. Its almost as if we would need two kinds of legends. Id like to see legends reprogrammed, so that they were a sort of *hardwired* previous phase, where we could basically build and annotate an entire model, and just not have it show up in the actual project.

But youre right, im not sure what happens then for showing annotations and such.

In the end im not sure what a good answer is, so i empathize with the Factory. For now, im content with the methods we have. Its a cumbersome workaround, but if its that or watch people draft the wall legends out of drafting lines...

[arqt49]

Scott, tags of components are by far a more useful tool than the ability to do a graphic symbols legend.
It means that you can tag the symbol with the Type Mark, for instance, and that is always up to date.
As it is, you can only do it with plain text, or use those dummy phases.
Dimensioning membranes (and not just faces and core) is another issue.

[3dway]

This topic went well, but I think that I got sidetracked by getting into the phasing stuff.

How do you get membrane layers to show up in a legend which is made by showing little wall sections that are modelled walls in a legend phase after the project.

We've come to a point where we want to do stuff like foundation wall parging as a membrane layer so it doesn't show as thickness in the plan, but is still in the wall type and will render.

Still not seing a good a good place to have my wall types represented as they are changed and have the whole list of materials that are in that wall edit dialogue show up and update dynamically.... except the keynotes which I guess would fall out of date if you added a layer.

I digress again.

Still can't keynote a membrane layer in a later "legend" phase.

[3dway]

I'll bump myself since late friday is probably not high times on the AUGI forum.