Pipe Network adjustment when you change invert

[Openwheeler]

I was under the presumption (and also an engineer that sat in a demonstration on time) that the whole pipe run would adjust if you edit the pipes properties, such as an invert…is this not the case or am I missing something in the help and user guide that I have researched in (also this Forum)?

I’ll try to explain the scenario for you…we have an 72” RCP and a 36” D.I. coming into a special structure, the 72” will be used as a storage pipe, as well as part of the distribution system to the final facility. The 36” invert was moved up towards the crown for 80% capacity of the 72” pipe, the upstream pipes didn’t adjust the slopes accordingly to the rules that I set to a minimum slope of .05% on the 36” pipe. I kept getting negative slope ratings that I had to go back and adjust the inverts one at a time. They are both (pipes & structures) within the same alignment, with station 10+00 at the most downstream structure.

Am I doing something wrong in the layout, pipe network properties, or the pipe properties side of this issue?

I’m very new to Civil 3D, so please explain in some detail for me.

Thank you for the assistance with this matter.

[Coolmo]

I'm curious about this one too because I've never gotten the "RULES" to work either. I always have to manually change all the inverts and pipe slopes.

[brainman1000]

I have found that rules seem to work best when used as a design check. The program tends to do unexpected things when using the rules to modify pipe information. Your best bet is to manually edit all of the information.

[brian.hailey933139]

I feel along the same way as brainman. I use the rules to initially layout my pipes and get them close to where they should be. Then modify them as needed for the design and use the rules to see where you may have design issues, too steep, too deep, to shallow, to yallow (ok, I've never been good at ryhming).

[Coolmo]

I use the rules to initially layout my pipes and get them close to where they should be.

OK, how do you do that? We have simple rules for minimum cover, max slope, min slope, etc. and when you select "apply rules", all the boxes get crazy and return inverts BELOW 0, even if the downstream inverts are set correctly.

[brian.hailey933139]

Do you have the rules assigned to the pipes/structures? Just because the rule exists in the drawing doesn't mean the pipe/structure is using it. Another thing to check, did you assign a reference surface to the pipe network? If not, you'll have to go back to the structures and pipes and reasign the appropriate surface for each one.

[Openwheeler]

Do you have the rules assigned to the pipes/structures?

Yes


Another thing to check, did you assign a reference surface to the pipe network?

Yes

With these questions being yes, I'm getting correct function from the "Apply Rules" option, but the question from the original start of the thread is how come the network isn't moving the inverts for the entire pipe network after you change one of them, you guys are saying the rules are involved...well how do you add a rule to get the network to react with that type of rule applied. I don't see how you add a rule; it only gives the cover and slope options like the poster mentioned earlier. Sorry if I'm overlooking something so basic, but this is my first rodeo in C3D.

Thank you ahead of time for clarifying the confusion.

[brian.hailey933139]

Rules are only applied at creation time and when you go to the pipes menu and say HEY! CIVIL 3D! APPLY THESE RULES AGAIN! (sorry for shouting).

Outside of those two times, the rules only show if the object (pipe or structure) is in violation of the rule.

[Openwheeler]

I'll assume your shouting at my reply...

The question still has not been addressed from this thread, as to the function of having an in sink, chorographic, unison change to the pipe network when you change an invert...like they show within demonstrations and marketing pitches (I saw it done in a webcast for Civil 3D 2008 on Autodesk.com).

How do you get it to work like Autodesk shows in the rollout marketing pitches? Change an invert or elevation depth within a structure, all pipes and structures adjust to correct depths for correct hydrology flow and rate. How is this accomplished in Civil 3D?

If you don't know the answer for this question, then just say so...If this function doesn't perform like they claim in the marketing examples…then just say so. It’s not the first case of bait and switch within our capitalistic society. Maybe they use an enhanced version of Civil 3D that’s not yet released in the marketplace; I don’t know. But I do know that I’ve read and experiment enough to realize that this product doesn’t function the way they showed or marketed it (my engineer as well). That is, unless someone can elaborate in detail how this is accomplished, instead of shouting the same replies of useless information of applying rules. What rules can you apply to get the software to function the way that I saw in the marketing pitch?

I don’t mean to be curt or offensive to anyone within this form, but I think it’s a straight forward question that multiple users may have as well, so I posted it. I would think that a direct answer without shouting to one another would be the best course of action.

I hope that this reply finds you well and happy on this New Years Eve! Be safe and prosper in 2009.

[dmortar]

He wasn't shouting at you, he was being sarcastic towards the C3D program.

As it is a pain in the arse from the "old school" LDT, which us "loyal" users now have to learn a whole new way doing "the same old thing" with a new program. "Just let Land Desktop disappear from your brain while you are learning C3D", very funny. What part of the claw hammer do I use to "let Land Desktop disappear from my brain"?

[Openwheeler]

I do sarcasm very well and can total relate to Brian’s point of relearning. But as I said in last post…”I don’t mean to be curt or offensive to anyone within this form, but I think it’s a straight forward question that multiple users may have as well, so I posted it. I would think that a direct answer without shouting to one another would be the best course of action.” I apologies if I have offended anyone for thinking he was directing that shouting statement towards me personally. I’m humane…ops! Now that’s SAR-CAS-M!!!

All joking aside…

I (and others) would appreciate someone to help out with an answer or give some in-depth detail to the question of this obviously perplexing technical shortcoming of C3D, or at least the version that we are provided with since nobody is contesting this claim that the software is felonious then the one that they advertise to consumers. I’m beginning to think that pipe network aspect of projects have been a secondary, if not tertiary priority. Pipe networking is the primary responsibility of our Environmental Engineering Department that needs specific hydrology engineering capabilities that C3D doesn’t provide, or I’m unable to find the answer to our question from my researching. I was merely hoping that someone had some answers to the question, that’s all.

[brian.hailey933139]

The question, "I was under the presumption (and also an engineer that sat in a demonstration on time) that the whole pipe run would adjust if you edit the pipes properties, such as an invert…is this not the case or am I missing something in the help and user guide that I have researched in (also this Forum)?"

Reworded to - "How can I get Civil 3D to automatically update my pipe network when I edit one pipe and have all the hydrology/hydraulics updated and the pipe sizes and inverts to updated as well".

Answer, "You can't".

I'm not sure what you saw but there is no way in Civil 3D to do what you want. If you are using Hydraflow (a companion program for Civil 3D) you can get the design to update and then bring that new design back into C3D.

I'm sorry my sarcasm didn't come through as intended. I was in no way shouting at you, I was shouting at Civil 3D. The ONLY time the pipes will update without you specifying the elevations is when they are created or when you go to the pipes menu and select Apply Rules...

[Openwheeler]

Reworded to - "How can I get Civil 3D to automatically update my pipe network when I edit one pipe and have all the hydrology/hydraulics updated and the pipe sizes and inverts to updated as well".

Answer, "You can't".

Now that's some straight forward information.


I'm not sure what you saw but there is no way in Civil 3D to do what you want. If you are using Hydraflow (a companion program for Civil 3D) you can get the design to update and then bring that new design back into C3D.

That is very possible. I'm not exactly sure what he saw, but talking to him about why the pipe didn't react to a change the way we thought it would, could very well be additional software associated with his demonstration that he witnessed.

As far as the webcast that I saw, it was more for a site development of a block (street and parcels), the changes in grading (cut/fill) and elevations of the surface that affected the pipe drainage system. When the speaker (soft-spoken guy) made changes in the grading (surface) the pipes adjusted with the changes. Then he demonstrated the conflicts functionality of the C3D. He may have had additional software, I really don't know. But the point I'm trying to get at here too, is that when you see the slick, smooth, polished workings of the marketing pitches from Autodesk, they don't always translate to easy user application use. Don’t get me wrong about the C3D…it’s a time saver, but they have made so many nuances within the software, that it’s difficult to be successful quickly. Plus, it would be nice to see/hear of all the tricks that they have added or used in order to perform the task that they marketing; instead getting the slicker, all polished version…that way your not getting false hope (mainly my engineer). LOL


I'm sorry my sarcasm didn't come through as intended. I was in no way shouting at you, I was shouting at Civil 3D. The ONLY time the pipes will update without you specifying the elevations is when they are created or when you go to the pipes menu and select Apply Rules...

That's okay. I think it's more of my personal frustration with this software and a deadline to perform, then you. I should not have assumed it was directed to me. That was a short coming of my character, not yours. As in the previous post, I'm sorry as well. I've put you on my buddy list...you may regret me doing that; I ask a lot of questions. (Sarcasm)

Live, Love, Laugh a lot.
Happy New Year…do’n fine in 09