Modeling a complex "birds-nest" esque boxboom.

[SupremeTaco]

Hello again!

As I've posted in another topic, I'm modeling a very complex performing arts center. I currently have it modeled in 3ds Max, but in trying to learn more about Revit I'd like to model it there as well.

Here are some screenshots and renders of inside the theater, looking at the acoustical panels that make up the boxboom, and cover the catwalks as well. They are made of 2"x4" tube steel (some parts are 4"x4") that cross in many directions. Those panels rest on the large 8" diameter tube steel frames that you see in the first picture (green), and are covered in 3/8" MDF with that pattern laser cut into them. Sorry about the lighting in these pics... I was too lazy and just threw in a daylight system and hid the roof :)

Any idea how these would be made and placed into the model...?

[cliff collins]

These panels could be modelled in a few different ways:

1. A Mass of the shape can be constructed, then the faces converted to walls.

2. The custom pattern/cutouts on the panels can be shown with a custom surface pattern and model lines.

3. If the "punched out" parts need to actually be modeled, then again I would vote for making separate custom wall families for the "puzzle pieces"--using voids to cut the punched openings. This will drastically increase the file size, however, as there are a large amount of small perforations.

It also depends on what the Revit model will be used for--purely documentation? or renderings/3D views, which require modeling as described in 3 above?

The perforations could also be applied as a custom material--like in 3dsMax, with bump/
displacements, etc. to represent the actual cut-outs and surrounding material.

In our workflow, we run into similar complex "theming elements" for casinos. We work with
theming contractors who actually model these complex forms in Inventor. We can then import an SAT file into Revit of the final themed element.

cheers....

[SupremeTaco]

Wow, after looking at your firm's website I can see that you must have had some interesting modeling challenges!

In tinkering around on my own I started tracing the 2D CAD files of the frames to make extrusions.

The individual perforations don't need to be physically modeled; the 3ds Max file is what I use for the renderings. So.. I just tried doing this with the mass technique that you mentioned; it seems to work very well! I just made 2" thick steel walls, and a 3/8" MDF Roof and now I've got a panel!

Thank you for your help :)

[SupremeTaco]

Ok so I've made one of my panels... but now how do I position it correctly? I can never seem to make an object that can be rotated in any direction... I tried making a new "Generic Model" family... even THAT can't be rotated on all axis! (Sorry if this is such a noob question, all I know in Revit is from experimenting on my own.)

[ejburrell67787]

Worth checking that the family isn't set to "Always vertical". Open the family, Settings menu, Family Category and Parameters.

Good luck!

[twiceroadsfool]

Making a family that can rotate in all directions doesnt have an easy solution. You can generally rotate an object in plan, if its not a hosted family. if you want to rotate it in elevation, you generally have to nest that family in to ANOTHER family, hosting it on a reference line, and putting an angle parameter on the reference line. Nest it again for the third direction youd like to rotate it, and connect all the parameters.

Realize you still wont be able to *rotate* it with the rotate commands, but with the properties dialogue boxes of the families.

Of course... You HAVE it built in MAX already... How accurate is it? You can put the Max model (or the pertinent parts of it) in to a Mass Family, load the mass family in to the theatre model, and wall by face it, if necessary. Import the steel model as it is, or rebuild it in revit... Though im not sure i would, unless youre the Structural Engineer on the job too. Because theyre going to have to redocument it anyway... Doesnt feel value adding to redo it, since you have it done already...

[SupremeTaco]

Elrond: I've tried that checkbox, but it didn't do what I needed. From searching around on here, and the answer twiceroadsfool gave it doesn't look like there is an easy solution to this.

Twice: Thanks for the detailed answer; I hadn't been able to find a clear explanation of this so far! As far as the accuracy of the Max model, I have it to the 16th of an inch for pretty much everything (updated with as-built information as we go along building it). It wouldn't be a problem to just import them, so I'll probably just do that, and try my luck with wall by faces. I was just hoping Revit had a way to cope with this easier.

The structural steel throughout the building was modeled by our sub with Tekla and I have no plans to try to re-model this beast's structure! (if you have the chance to get your hands on a fully detailed Tekla model, check it out. That is one of the most powerful programs I've seen in a very long time!) Most of the ductwork also came from another sub out of CAD Mech, and the plumbing from CAD Pipe, although a lot of that had to be re-built in 3ds Max.

[cliff collins]

All of these BIM models/file formats can be combined/imported into Revit--or other software like Navisworks,or maybe even Vico's new/upcoming "Vico Office".

Hard to get everything into a single format--although using Revit Arch., Revit Structure
and Revit MEP could probably be done on even a complex project such as this.

Max is usually used to render/animate these models--after they are built in Revit first--
we tend not to model in Max.The reason is to take advantage of BIM with the Revit platform.
Revit 2009 and 3dsMaxDesign 2009 have been re-vamped to work well together.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Nice looking project, by the way!

cheers.....

[SupremeTaco]

Yes I've used Navisworks a LOT on this project. What I've found that works best is that everybody sends their files to me in a .dwg format, I take them into 3ds Max and clean up any extra floating text, notes, bad geometry or errors in their model or whatever, then I export as an .nwc (native file format for Navisworks) and it all works beautifully.

The primary reason for this model is for coordination, and figuring out complex areas such as how to build this boxboom system. I've spent a lot of time with the architect pushing and pulling bits and pieces around to make everything into flat planes, fit within the walls, and make everything work with as-built information as they install the large steel frames. All this then got exported to our manufacturer or these panels (they are outside waiting to be put up as of right now actually!)

The majority of my work is on-the-fly with the superintendent/foreman right behind me (I work for the GC by the way) going over finely detailed areas, then giving them screenshots/plans to go build it... it's not really a typical BIM project, but I definitely understand why you guys do it the way you do!

I will definitely send the architect your compliments :)

[cliff collins]

Wow! Cool to see someone from the Construction side using Revit and Max.

BIM is definitely catching on like wildfire--across all disciplines.

Pretty soon the roles of Designer and Builder will be blurring......

cheers

[SupremeTaco]

It's good to see that this is appreciated! We're finding that some architects feel as if we're stepping on top of them, when in reality we would LOVE it if they would jump on and make models that we could all share! So it sure is awesome to see everyone on here helping each other so freely and really getting involved :)

[cliff collins]

Bill,

This is what Integrated Project Delivery is striving towards achieving---
early collaboration btwn. Owner, Designer and Builder--and throughout
construction process, with BIM as the central focal point.

We are delving into to IPD now. "The times they are a changin'" as they say.

cheers....