Estimating Software

[adegnan]

How many of you are actually involved in estimating? What software do you use or recommend?

Right now I use my own excel spreadsheet carried over from the days of pencil and paper. While it prevents mathematical errors that I would otherwise make with pencil and paper, it is only as good as the data that I have to use in it and my abilities as a spreadsheet-maker.

I am a residential design builder and remodelor. The other issue I am facing is, I am looking at a significant change in what I build. I am trying to work on detail and design over size; win clients with the "not so big house" rather than competing with other McMansions. So, there are some areas of detail that I do not yet have good historical data on, in terms of estimating installatin numbers.

Also, as some say, "garbage in, garbage out." I am not satisfied with the accuracy of the timesheet data that I am collecting from the field; it does not relate back to my spreadsheet in a consistent manner. I am re-working my reporting categories, and want to simplify the way data is reported back to me while increasing the detail of my estimates.

That is, I will have a more general reporting category, but for estimating I want to dig deeper into the sub-categories for estimating.

So, this leads to two more questions--

How many of you residential designers or builders work with CSI categories for division of labor, etc? If you don't use CSI, what do you use? I hear that a lot of people use the Hometech categores, even if they don't use the Hometech estimating system. There is also a DCA numbering system that I've run into with one title company in this area.

Right now, I am considering 3 options:

-Spreadsheet. Continue what I do now, improve upon it. (Disadvantage: I have limitations on my knowledge and do not have a resource to hire to do it for me... yet. Advantage: I can fine tune it to be whatever I want it to be.)

-Hometech. (Advantage: Has cost data built in for me to double check against. It is set up to do many things already. Also, inexpensive! Disadvantage: It has limitations on being customizable. It forces me to follow a specific format that is pre-determined.)

-Contractors SOftware Group-Take Off Plus. Advantage: Fully customizable, assembly-based, flexible. Has features such as generating PO's from estimates and the ability to compare material packages from various vendors to select the most competative vendor. Also has integrated accounting and project management system which can be purchased separately. Disadvantage: A little more expensive. No pre-set up categories and assemblies; I need to create the cost data and assemblies myself. Longer training curve.)


Any input? Either specific experience, or general philosophy?

Thanks,
Abe

[cgrover]

Abe,

I just purchased Costlink A/E and so far have been pretty impressed. Since I do mostly commercial I haven't really looked at how useful it would be for residential projects. You could check it out at www.bsdsoftlink.com.

grover

[gregcashen]

Abe, having recently changed careers from structural engineering to construction project management for a design-build firm, I find myself doing a lot of budgets lately. Granted, these are for retail buildings and office TI's, but the 2 biggest lessons I have learned are...

1. Don't trust ANY of the stock estimating books, software, etc. In a world where steel and lumber have double-digit-percentage price increases, only trust your own historical data and the numbers your design-build partners are giving you.

2. Make a lot of calls. Your subs are going to be able to tell you a lot more than means, saylor or any other estimating books can. Plus, as a design-builder, you should be able to get them signed up earlier on than if you were a normal design-bid-build contractor only doing the bidding and building, so you should have better numbers earlier on than most architect's or engineer's estimates would.

I would tend to focus on the Excel side of things, as you can customize infinitely. Also, I think longer term there is the potential for greater interaction with Revit. That said, I have not seen the products you're referring to, so they may be more customizable than I know. For the kind of work I do, my company uses the systems approach, so rather than group by CSI division (prices generally do not go up by division) we group by systems...Sitework, Substructure, Superstructure, Interior Construction, etc. It is a lot easier to determine a multiplier for the cost increase of a system than a CSI division. Even our rough estimates are usually pretty close...

Anyway, not exactly what you wanted and probably not as helpful as others will be, but I thought I'd offer my opinion. Let me know what you think of the Take-off Plus option if you go that route. It sounds very full-featured...I would be curious to hear how easy it is to use in everyday practice.

G

[Yman]

Hey Abe,

I use the estimating that is built into ARCOMANS. The demo will be coming out in a week or two ( I know I said this before, but we added quite a bit more to the program over the last couple of months and we wanted to get it right). Sign up for the demo version when we come out with it. www.creativemtnsoftware.com I use the estimating in it all the time and the last estimate I did for the university here was only off $2,200.00 from the bid. I agree with Greg. I don't rely on any books for cost, I always call subs and lumberyards or companys that make the products for prices. I have found that the numbers in books are not very good. You have to build your own database of estimate information (I will leave some information in it that I use here) but that allows you to create whatever you need. It is also set up using the CSI divisions with a little modification in a couple of categories.

Y.

[adegnan]

G,

Yes, I definitely make a lot of calls and get quotes from my subs and vendors. (And that is one nice think about Take Off Plus is that I can have my vendors update a catalog of prices monthly, for instance.)

Y,
I guess I'll have to wait patiently. I really want to see what you put together since it sounds like it has some integration with Revit. Plus I trust you and your instincts! I really like what Take Off Plus has to offer but I better not jump the gun until I can try yours.

Waiting (im)patiently!!

[Yman]

I don't know what Takeoff plus does but you will be able to compare. The integration with Revit will not be in the first release. It will come at a later release. Not sure exactly when that will happen. The estimating built into ARCOMANS is for you to use and calculate estimates from your own knowledge of pricing. Once I got the information up to date in my database then estimates went pretty easy and then I roll them into the construction management part of the program to do design/ build of project.

We are trying to hurry, just verifying everything.

Y

[jmcdermott]

I just got around to reading this thread. I completely agree with Greg. I am an architect who has worked as a General Contractor and Design-Builder for small commercial fit ups and renovations for about three years. I found the Cost Report generator in Revit to be a usefull starting place and could tweek it to be slightly more useful in Excel, but I was still disappointed to see it removed in Revit 6.1. I have posted a poll to see how many people want some thing incorporated in future releases to facilitate plugging in to a third party software or a new improved CostWorks substitute.
I will also be examining closely the two softwares noted above and will get back to this thread.

[beegee]

If I was a deveoper, looking at Revit and its future API, one of the first things that I would look at would be a cost estimating add-on, based on the specific requirements of my locale.

[bev]

We are a design-build firm in Vermont specializing in residential work (with some commerical), and are wondering if other firms could speak with us by phone regarding estimating.
Also, interested in how other design-build firms bill for design services now that Revit makes construction documents so fast...

Bev

[cliff collins]

Take a look at "Building Explorer". It's a new program designed to work with Revit.

www.buildingexplorer.com

Cheers....

[m20roxxers]

I use Costx by exactal.

It's basically a CAD system with a spread sheet system built into it. It has the ability to open most drawing formats and can read the metadata from files like DWF.

You can do take offs of any items in your drawings and if the plans are taken from Revit it will scan and connect all the metadata to give you area's, counts and volumes instantly.

You can then build up your rate libraries to Automatically associate rates and perform comparisons when you get Revisions for the project.

There are plans for it to be able to read 3D files directly whether Revit IFC and other formats, although TBA before those features are built into the system.

www.exactal.com