XREF Methods for Drawing Border

[CEHill]

To anticipate and expedite future changes to the company's drawing borders, I have recently set up and now use XREF'd drawing borders in AutoCAD. The company logo is a TIFF image file and the attributes (title block entries) are inserted as a block.


Is it best to 'attach' or 'overlay' these drawings border DWG files?
What are the pitfalls/advantages of each method (Currently, I use 'overlay'.)
Are there any articles you can suggest on this topic?

[tedg]

To anticipate and expedite future changes to the company's drawing borders, I have recently set up and now use XREF'd drawing borders in AutoCAD. The company logo is a TIFF image file and the attributes (title block entries) are inserted as a block.


Is it best to 'attach' or 'overlay' these drawings border DWG files?
What are the pitfalls/advantages of each method (Currently, I use 'overlay'.)
Are there any articles you can suggest on this topic?
This has been discussed allot here in AUGI.
Take a look here (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=8943) for instance.

We use "overlay" when xreffing the titleblock in each sheet file, and the drawing level attributes in each sheet file (layout) as well. If you have a key plan, this gets "attached" as an xref to the title block dwg file and "unloaded" in sheets that don't use it.

[Spenner]

To anticipate and expedite future changes to the company's drawing borders, I have recently set up and now use XREF'd drawing borders in AutoCAD. The company logo is a TIFF image file and the attributes (title block entries) are inserted as a block.


Is it best to 'attach' or 'overlay' these drawings border DWG files?
What are the pitfalls/advantages of each method (Currently, I use 'overlay'.)
Are there any articles you can suggest on this topic?


I would always say that you should 'overlay' your drawing border or any Xref unless you want it to appear in other drawings.
Personally I would never attach an Xref’s, as the Xref will be referenced through to any other drawing you Xref that drawing.

Also I wouldn’t Xref from your master drawing boarder folder on your CAD Standards drive (if that’s were you store them). The reason why I would do this is not every drawing boarder will be the same on every project as the client may wish for their logo to be added to the boarder.

We always copy your drawings boarders into your job/project folder (see attached screen print ‘folder structure’). Then Xref the boarder in making sure its ‘overlaid’ NOT attached, then put on the drawing sheet layer. We then insert the drawing title as a block and explode it so we can edit the attribute information.

[jaberwok]

We always copy your (?) drawings boarders into your job/project folder (see attached screen print ‘folder structure’). Then Xref the boarder in making sure its ‘overlaid’ NOT attached, then put on the drawing sheet layer. We then insert the drawing title as a block and explode it so we can edit the attribute information.

Why explode?
The attributes lose the attribute of being attributes. (That does does really make sense, honest)

[Spenner]

Why explode?
The attributes lose the attribute of being attributes. (That does does really make sense, honest)

When you insert the title block it needs exploding. It must be the way the block has been setup. Its not the way I would of done it but it was done before I joined the company.

[TerribleTim]

When you insert the title block it needs exploding. It must be the way the block has been setup. Its not the way I would of done it but it was done before I joined the company.
It's nothing to do with the way the title block was created, it's the fact that you are inserting it as a block. The attributes are a block themselves. So basically, you have the attributes as a nested block in this title block "block" that you inserted. That's why you have to explode it. The block containing the attributes still remains, until you explode it one more time.

My college professor used this method. Not saying it's right or wrong. There's a million ways to skin a cat, or draw a line in AutoCAD. :wink:

I prefer to have the title block as it's own drawing and x-ref it in.

[bcgatti]

To second what "TeriblTim" said, we have our title block text information saved as its own file and it is Inserted into the drawing sheet. Our actual title block is brought in via Xref - Overlay.

[Spenner]

TerbltTim,

Can you get the block to work so when you insert this you dont need to explode it?


It's nothing to do with the way the title block was created, it's the fact that you are inserting it as a block. The attributes are a block themselves. So basically, you have the attributes as a nested block in this title block "block" that you inserted. That's why you have to explode it. The block containing the attributes still remains, until you explode it one more time.

I prefer to have the title block as it's own drawing and x-ref it in.

How do you edit your title block then?

Sorry if I sound stupid here but how does the attributes works on an Xref?
Wont this make the drawing board the same in every drawing? i.e. the drawing title, scale, date, drawn by, drawing number, revision etc...

[bcgatti]

TerbltTim,

Can you get the block to work so when you insert this you dont need to explode it?

How do you edit your title block then?

Sorry if I sound stupid here but how does the attributes works on an Xref?
Wont this make the drawing board the same in every drawing? i.e. the drawing title, scale, date, drawn by, drawing number, revision etc...

You will need to split it up into two different blocks. One that contains your attributed text (the changeable portion) and will be "Inserted" and the other that will contain your border file (the static portion) which will be "xref'd".

You cannot edit attributes through an Xref - the attributed block must be inserted if you expect to be able to edit it.

[Misteracad]

You will need to split it up into two different blocks. One that contains your attributed text (the changeable portion) and will be "Inserted" and the other that will contain your border file (the static portion) which will be "xref'd".

You cannot edit attributes through an Xref - the attributed block must be inserted if you expect to be able to edit it.

We do the same thing at our firm...this is the way to go IMHO.

[Spenner]

You will need to split it up into two different blocks. One that contains your attributed text (the changeable portion) and will be "Inserted" and the other that will contain your border file (the static portion) which will be "xref'd".

You cannot edit attributes through an Xref - the attributed block must be inserted if you expect to be able to edit it.


I think I might be getting a little confused here.

That's how we have it here the drawing boarders set up as one block (ie. A0. A1, A2, A3 & A4), which we will Xref in to the drawing in the paper space.
Then we have the drawing title block as another block which we then insert as a block, but to edit the attributes we need to explode the block

I didnt think you could edit the attributes through an Xref..

[bcgatti]

I think I might be getting a little confused here.

That's how we have it here the drawing boarders set up as one block (ie. A0. A1, A2, A3 & A4), which we will Xref in to the drawing in the paper space.
Then we have the drawing title block as another block which we then insert as a block, but to edit the attributes we need to explode the block

I didnt think you could edit the attributes through an Xref..

Do you have a nested block; that contains your attributed text, in your drawing title block? In other words, are your attribute text elements selectable as individual items in the title block or are they part of a block in that file? They have to be selectable as individual items in the title block file.

[tedg]

I think I might be getting a little confused here.

That's how we have it here the drawing boarders set up as one block (ie. A0. A1, A2, A3 & A4), which we will Xref in to the drawing in the paper space.
Then we have the drawing title block as another block which we then insert as a block, but to edit the attributes we need to explode the block

I didnt think you could edit the attributes through an Xref..
Just to clarify what others have already said....

You have "title block" drawing with editable attributes that contain the common PROJECT information that will show up in all sheets. This drawing is in model space.
The attributes are not "raw attributes" they are part of the block (or could be it's own block for that matter) but they are editable via "ddatte" or whatever you use.

And then...
You have your sheet file drawings (layouts that represent your printable drawings).
The title block drawing gets xreffed into paper space for your layout.
Then you (usually) insert a block (that are just editable block attributes) that are the sheet level information, like sheet number, sheet title, etc.

[revacservice]

Personally I use a block with editable attributes for title blocks, limiting X-references to information that may be used by more than one drawing file and may be amended frequently.

I can see no advantage in X-referencing title blocks as once designed there should be no reason to ammend it unless you intend to move office during the course of a project.

All my Clients standard title blocks are stored in a sub-directory and inserted in drawing files as necessary, If a project required a special title block this is stored with the project files.

Don Smith

[RobertB]

Personally I use a block with editable attributes for title blocks, limiting X-references to information that may be used by more than one drawing file and may be amended frequently.Don, isn't that the definition of a titleblock? :confused:

After all, the linework is shared amongst all the sheets, and items such as submittal date are going to be amended frequently and yet are the same on all sheets in the project. (This is from the AEC perspective.)


I can see no advantage in X-referencing title blocks as once designed there should be no reason to ammend it unless you intend to move office during the course of a project.This is a bit short-sighted. What happens when you need to change elements of the titleblock across hundreds of sheets due to some change from the client?

Decades of experience has shown me that XRefs are the only way to go. At least in the AEC field.

[revacservice]

I concede that there may be a case to xref title blocks if your involved in say a mining company with hundreds and hundreds of drawings and some clown in management decides to change a logo requiring every drawing to be up dated, but pre CAD in this case not every drawing was ever redrawn.

But in most cases the number of drawings are manageable number for any one particular project once the project name and references are set the only thing that changes drawing to drawing is the title and number scale date etc and once that's entered the only other change is the revision letter/number. So if a master file is set up at the start of a project containing the basic info this can be inserted as a block, end of story.

Another plus of not having the title block as an xref, when sharing files with other companies its one less orphaned file to track down.

Keeping track of x-refed files can become a nightmare, one particular project I am currently involved in the Architects issues each drawing as a zip file, which when expanded forms a subdirectory with that drawing number as a name, this directory contains the drawing file and other sub-directories for its x-refed files, fonts etc. etc. So when I'm issued with a number of drawings each referencing the same file I end up with umpteen copies of every font title block and x-refed file and try and find the latest to update my background is no small task, given that each x-refed file may be a different edition and each drawing is made up of a number of files!

There must be a better way.

Don't get me wrong I like x-referencing but please, please keep it simple and manageable

Don Smith
(alias Victor , I don't believe it, Meldrew)

[Brian C]

We never Xref borders, as I find it too difficult to manage, especially since we email dwgs alot.That way we would have to be sure to attach the borders with the email or bind the borders.

We have an autolisp setup program that inserts the border as a block (with attributes). A dialog box asks for size (A, B, D, project, etc).

If the border has to change, we have another autolisp that replaces the border and reads the old attributes (Title, date, etc) and puts them in the new border.

[TerribleTim]

Wow, I guess there are a few ways to make things more and more complicated. :shock:

So, the whole debate about x-refs will rage on until the end of time, or until everyone adopts Revit. :razz: But, for those who feel that x-refs are too difficult to manage when sending a drawing to someone I would suggest using the tools Autodesk has given you. There is this really cool tool in AutoCAD called "E-Transmit" that will gather all the drawings, fonts, plot styles, etc of a given file and zip them up for you so that you can send them without having any orphaned drawings or missing font files or whatever. Look into it, it's really handy.

As for the debate about x-ref'ing a title block or inserting it into each sheet as a block. I'm with Rob on this one. We constantly have to change not only the date, but the project phase and a few other items as we move through a project. That stuff needs to be in the x-ref so I don't have to change it on every sheet. The only thing in our title block that is not in the x-ref is the sheet number. EVERYTHING else is in the x-ref. The sheet number is the ONLY thing different on each sheet. Why would there be anything else different on each sheet? As for the drawing scale, that is found below the drawing title, not in the title block info. If there are multiple drawings on a single sheet, it makes even more sense to NOT be in the title block info. Just our way of doing things, but sure makes sense to me. Our average job has about 10 sheets. That doesn't seem like too many. But when you have to open each one and change the same thing, it is way too many. We consistently have jobs with well over 35-40 sheets and some with as many as 50-60 sheets. That is only our sheets, not the full set. When we have to manage all of the sheets for the whole set, the power of x-refs is huge. My advice, if you are confused with x-refs from your consultant, call them and ask about it. Everyone uses a slightly different method and a slightly different structure. But they are always willing to tell you all about their methods.

Now, back to the whole "How do I make it so I don't have to explode it when I insert it" deal. If you have created your attributes as a block in the drawing and then inserted that drawing as a block, you now have a nested block, thus you will have to explode it once to get at the attributes. I have not seen a way around this yet. My advice would be this - place the block with the title block info attributes in your template instead of in a separate drawing. This way you are not inserting another drawing as a block, you are only inserting a block in the current drawing. Also, if the title block info is in your template you won't have to go looking for the drawing containing the attributes every time you need it, it will already be "on location". :cool: Templates rule my friends! :cool:

[revacservice]

So what happens at my end if say an Architect compiles a CD of a drawing set of say 30 drawings, each x-refing the same drawing file for a project, individually zipping each drawing using this E-transmit function?

Do I then end up with 30 copies of every x-ref, font etc. etc. on my hard drive when I unzip them?

If this is so, there must be a better way.

Don Smith

[Glenn Pope]

So what happens at my end if say an Architect compiles a CD of a drawing set of say 30 drawings, each x-refing the same drawing file for a project, individually zipping each drawing using this E-transmit function?

Do I then end up with 30 copies of every x-ref, font etc. etc. on my hard drive when I unzip them?

If this is so, there must be a better way.

Don Smith

You have the option of having it bind the xrefs or not. If you don't bind them then it will set all the drawing that reference the x-ref to relative path. So as long as the unziped files are kept together then they will find the xref.

[TerribleTim]

So what happens at my end if say an Architect compiles a CD of a drawing set of say 30 drawings, each x-refing the same drawing file for a project, individually zipping each drawing using this E-transmit function?

Do I then end up with 30 copies of every x-ref, font etc. etc. on my hard drive when I unzip them?

If this is so, there must be a better way.

Don Smith

No, it doesn't have to work that way. You can eTransmit the entire set as one zip file and it will grab one copy of each needed file and place it in the zip. it will also maintain the folder structure as well, making unzipping easy at the other end. You don't have to eTransmit each one individually.

Also, if making a CD of your drawing set, here is the method I use.
1) - eTransmit the complete set. This creates a zip file containing everything needed for the complete set.
2) - Open the zip file.
3) - Insert blank CD and open a writable window.
4) - Drag all your files from the zip file ot the writable window.
5) - Burn baby, burn!
This will give you a CD with one copy of each file needed for the set and the correct folder structure so that all your x-refs will work correctly and no font files will be missing or anything like that. Plus, you will be left with that zip file to archive an electronic copy somewhere on your file server for future reference.

I would suggest trying the eTransmit feature on a set and take a look at what it does. It's really quite cool and simple. :cool:

[ivan.weiss]

Personally I never xref'd my titleblocks in. I just felt that xref's tend to creating drawing issues when sending my files elsewhere. Some people are just not as familiar with them.

I made a prototype dwg file and had all of my sheets lined up as tabs already complete. We created the titleblock as a block so any change to any sheet would automatically update throughout the entire set.

It kept it all neat and in one file.

The only drawback is if we wanted a mass change to all projects that was impossible and we could only correct things moving forward.

Now, I am turning 180 degrees and switching to project navigator as we have ADT. Depending on your use keep an eye on ADT vs AutoCAD. The cost is substantial but it really is powerful software!

[revacservice]

If only the Architect had read your post, he has compiled a CD using "E-Transmit" individually for each and every drawing file, so instead of one zip file containing one copy of all the goodies I have a CD with 30 plus zip files resulting in 30 plus copies of every font, x-ref etc.

It is a strong possibility that the zip files were compiled at different times so some the x-ref files may be later versions than others.

I'll take on board all the useful hints everyone has been kind enough to offer when using this facility, but at the moment I'm the bunny at the receiving end trying to make use of the files.

Thanks all

Don Smith

[Brian C]

The only drawback is if we wanted a mass change to all projects that was impossible and we could only correct things moving forward.

Actually it is possible to do mass changes on old projects, we do it at startup through autolisp and it works great.

[CEHill]

Well, I really restarted something here, didn't I?

The preceding dialog has certainly clarfied things. The reasons for this thread:

Make the best use of the available software feature (the reason for this thread)
Use a software feature best suited to the task.
See how others are using these features in the context of their work environment.I have been in mfg engr. support (11+ yrs.), in AEC (3 1/2 yrs. using Microstation) and, as of Oct. '08, back in mfg engr. support and now exclusively use Autodesk software.

Unheard of in the highly collaborative AEC environment, my current position allows me the luxury (or curse) of being the single full version AutoCAD user, sole designer/drafter and CAD mgr.

I now depend on the input of fellow CAD professionals here. THANKS!

[dortega4269]

We typically xref the Titleblock (TB) in and then insert a separate drawing (tb-info.dwg) with a block of attributes into each sheet. I've even started to create the attributes with 'fields' to automate the sheet names when using the Sheet Set Manger (SSM); change the name of the drawing on the SSM and the attribute is update on the TB.

It's a nice touch when you have a lot of sheets because all of the editing is done in the SSM** rather than in each drawing; basically you eliminate the opening, saving and closing process for all of the sheets.

**Process: Go to the Sheet Set Manger, Right-click on the first sheet, Select Rename & Renumber, Edit the Sheet Title (S1.1 or S101), click NEXT to modify the next sheet, and click OK when finished (see Sheet# Screenshot).

Another useful thing we do is xref the Delta information (see Delta Screenshot). What I mean by this is, I've created a Delta block with attributes for the delta number, date and title (single and multi-line option for title). I insert the block into a blank sheet, edit the attribute information as prompted, save it as 'Delta1.dwg' and then I xref it into TB of the revised sheets from my XREF folder.

We started doing this to save time when working on large projects (set of drawings having 100+ sheets) with numerous sheets requiring a delta. What happened was, we'd submit the project to the Client and they would hold on to the project to make comments rather than submit it to the Building Department, which meant that we would have to revise the delta information; steps required: locate the 20-30 sheets affected, update each date and title; when the drawings are randomly placed in a large set of drawings our method is proven to save tons of time**.

**Process: Go to the XREF folder, locate the 'delta1.dwg' file and open it, change the date and title, click 'SAVE', Done; (all xrefs are automatically updated)!... needless to say, now it's become a common practice for projects big and small.

Hope this helps... DJO

[dortega4269]

Actually it is possible to do mass changes on old projects, we do it at startup through autolisp and it works great.
Who's writing all of these lisps your talking about? i'd like to see a few to see what they offer...

[3dway]

We started doing this to save time when working on large projects (set of drawings having 100+ sheets) with numerous sheets requiring a delta. What happened was, we'd submit the project to the Client and they would hold on to the project to make comments rather than submit it to the Building Department, which meant that we would have to revise the delta information; steps required: locate the 20-30 sheets affected, update each date and title; when the drawings are randomly placed in a large set of drawings our method is proven to save tons of time**.

**Process: Go to the XREF folder, locate the 'delta1.dwg' file and open it, change the date and title, click 'SAVE', Done; (all xrefs are automatically updated)!... needless to say, now it's become a common practice for projects big and small.

Hope this helps... DJO

Do all of your sheets have the same revision block, even if there was no revision on that sheet? How do you deal with a set where, say, you have three sheets, all "issued for building permit" with revisions only on sheet one and two. Then when you issue for construction you have only a revision on sheet three. Revision 1 on sheets one and two will say "added left handed widget" and be dated the same as the building permit submission. Sheet 3 will have Revision 1 saying "removed walls at the owner's whim". All three sheets will have two issued numbers and dates. If you're editing one xref Delta 1 means left handed widget on the first two sheets and delta one means owner's whim on the last sheet.

I see that you might assign a delta to each revision, but then every sheet has to carry the revisions of the whole set. For a drawing like a site plan, which gets often 15 or 20 revisions (in our office with our clients anyhow) the revision column could be full on a sheet a that's never been revised.

Just curious how to make this work in a globally manageable way. We haven't been able to do it and make it follow the ruleset - "A sheet can be issued without being revised, but a sheet can never be revised without being issued".

[RobertB]

Do all of your sheets have the same revision block, even if there was no revision on that sheet? How do you deal with a set where, say, you have three sheets, all "issued for building permit" with revisions only on sheet one and two. Then when you issue for construction you have only a revision on sheet three. Revision 1 on sheets one and two will say "added left handed widget" and be dated the same as the building permit submission. Sheet 3 will have Revision 1 saying "removed walls at the owner's whim". All three sheets will have two issued numbers and dates. If you're editing one xref Delta 1 means left handed widget on the first two sheets and delta one means owner's whim on the last sheet.

I see that you might assign a delta to each revision, but then every sheet has to carry the revisions of the whole set. For a drawing like a site plan, which gets often 15 or 20 revisions (in our office with our clients anyhow) the revision column could be full on a sheet a that's never been revised.

Just curious how to make this work in a globally manageable way. We haven't been able to do it and make it follow the ruleset - "A sheet can be issued without being revised, but a sheet can never be revised without being issued".I think the intent is not to provide a single revision table with annotation to cover all sheets. Rather, where a revision will affect more than one sheet, create an annotation XRef that allows you to attach the needed annotation in relation to the fixed revision table from the titleblock XRef. The annotation XRef would refer to a single revision item, not all revisions to a sheet. The annotation XRef would be inserted, not at 0,0,0, but rather in the appropriate location of the revision table.

[dortega4269]

Do all of your sheets have the same revision block, even if there was no revision on that sheet? How do you deal with a set where, say, you have three sheets, all "issued for building permit" with revisions only on sheet one and two. Then when you issue for construction you have only a revision on sheet three. Revision 1 on sheets one and two will say "added left handed widget" and be dated the same as the building permit submission. Sheet 3 will have Revision 1 saying "removed walls at the owner's whim". All three sheets will have two issued numbers and dates. If you're editing one xref Delta 1 means left handed widget on the first two sheets and delta one means owner's whim on the last sheet.

I see that you might assign a delta to each revision, but then every sheet has to carry the revisions of the whole set. For a drawing like a site plan, which gets often 15 or 20 revisions (in our office with our clients anyhow) the revision column could be full on a sheet a that's never been revised.

Just curious how to make this work in a globally manageable way. We haven't been able to do it and make it follow the ruleset - "A sheet can be issued without being revised, but a sheet can never be revised without being issued".

I've attached a few sample files for you to get a better understanding of my method.

Files attached:
-TB.dwg
-Delta1.dwg
-DeltaX.dwg**

Here's how you would apply my method:
1. Open TB.dwg file (file setup for use in PaperSpace) and view the 'sample' tab.
2. Open Delta1.dwg and do a file SaveAs Delta2.dwg and modify the information.
3. Xref the Delta2.dwg file and insert it at the Revision line beneath Delta1 in the TB.dwg file.
4. Open Delta1.dwg again and modify the information and Save.
5. Using the Xref Manager, Refresh ALL Xref's found in the TB.dwg file.
6. Note the change of information in Delta1 Revision line.

My theory...
If you inserted my Delta1.dwg file into every sheet affected by change, requiring a revision cloud & Revision note on the Titleblock, you could very easily modify the Xref (Delta1.dwg) information and ALL sheets containing the Xref will update. Furthermore, if you created a new file (e.g. Delta3, Delta 4, Delta5) according to your latest revision, you would Xref each file in the same manner as before and they would update as necessary. This comes in handy when a client holds onto a set of drawings (loses) and requires you to reprint and send 10 sets of drawings with a different date to his office by days end.

I hope I've cleared up any confusion... if you require any further assistance on this topic be sure to add another post and I'll get back to you or anyone else as soon as I'm available.

**The DeltaX.dwg file is my 'common' block renamed accordingly and used for each project. I have it stored in a central file location and always copy and paste it into my new project folder within an Xref folder. I use this method so that all Xref's are contained and are easily found.

[dortega4269]

I think the intent is not to provide a single revision table with annotation to cover all sheets. Rather, where a revision will affect more than one sheet, create an annotation XRef that allows you to attach the needed annotation in relation to the fixed revision table from the titleblock XRef. The annotation XRef would refer to a single revision item, not all revisions to a sheet. The annotation XRef would be inserted, not at 0,0,0, but rather in the appropriate location of the revision table.

Thanks RobertB... you explained that very well on my behalf. I've included more information to clarify my intent further.

[michael.12445]

I seem to remember seeing "ability to use attributes with xrefs as well as with blocks" on the Wish List a long, long time ago. Imagine how much simpler this thread would be if Autodesk had bothered to heed this wish.

[Richard McDonald]

Thanks RobertB... you explained that very well on my behalf. I've included more information to clarify my intent further.

On just a quick scan through this thread would linking fields within the titleblock to the sheetset manager be a better solution. I know of this function but have never used it yet.

When reprinting the drawing set you wouldn't even need to open a single drawing. just update the field an publish with your choice of page setup overide.

This (http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/autocad/tutorials/sheet_sets.htm) may help explain better.