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I know this is coffee, leave your CAD at the door, but, I came across some comments that I'd saved from the pre-worm forums. I might be missing a couple (most notably, the post that spawned all of the subsequent commentary).
So, in the attached pdf, you can find a discussion by the forumers about the benefits of having learned to draft on the board, and the benefits of switching to CAD later on.
Just a little light reading if you are interested... enjoy
I didn't get a chance to read over the whole thing, BUT..........here's my take.
I learned board drafting in HS.........absolutely loved it even though I can't draw for squat!!!!!!!!! when I went to college the 1st time, I didn't take any drafting classes, as the college I went to didn't offer any. when I went back to college a 2nd time, I ended up having to learn CAD R14 (required - ICK!) & hated it!!!!!!!!! I'm not what you'd call a technical person, so most of it didn't make sense to me at all!!!!!!!! during that summer break, someone at the college had the smart idea to convert to 2000, but not give us who'd learned on 14 any kind of refresher, update, NOTHING!!!!!!!!! I was frustrated enough with 14, but to go to 2000 cold????????? I struggled, but I did it. still haven't graduated, but that's another story. anyway, I have to say that I have had more issues with CAD than I have with board drafting. I think it's a little more accurate on CAD, BUT, I think you can be more detailed on the board. not to mention that I can draft on the board when all the electricity has failed!!!!!!!!!! (candlelight.......ever heard of it?) with CAD, I have to wait on large, slow drawings, worry about computers locking up, & if a drawing crashes, I'm not guaranteed that I can recover it. so.......to make a long story short......I'd have liked to stick with board drafting, but that's the way life goes! always thinking of something better...........supposedly.......
When I first started drafting (1987) I learned on the boards as CAD hadn't quite hit it's stride yet. I still remember my excitement as I moved from the old wooden drafting tables up to the latest in technology.. the electric drafting board. Push the button near the floor and watch the table rise into the sky or lower it down toward the ground. No longer did I have to use the straight edge rule to draw a line... no sir, I used the mechanical drafting arm and all it's settings to draw lines, angles, etc.
Then in 1989 I first had the opportunity to use AutoCAD. Trust me, I messed up that poor 286 computer so many times I wanted to scream. I don't want to hear about slow AutoCAD unless you worked on something less than a Pentium.. you have no idea just what slow is. I remember when my buddy got a 486 machine, we thought it was the state of the art in speed... sad thing is it WAS the fastest thing going back in... I think 1992. And DOS.. there wasn't an AutoCAD for Windows. 64 MB of RAM was considered huge. A 1 GB HD? Heck, my first AutoCAD computer had 40 mega-byte hard drive. Yep, it fit and I had room for several drawings too. The rest we backed up on 5 1/4" floppy disks until we got our server... with a massive 500MB of storage space. Yep, the typical CD today has more storage space than my entire server did in 1993.
Anyway, back on topic... AutoCAD (or CAD in general) is better than hand drawing if you want to make changes or use details multiple times. I'm happy the days of sticky-backs, electric erasers, pencil shavings, bad backs and the draftsman's finger are gone. In case you don't know, the draftsman's finger was that indentation on the finger all the old board drafters would tend to get from pushing the pencil down against their finger.
Of course, instead of a bad back I now have bad eyes, instead of sticky-backs I have block libraries, and instead of the once nice, spacious drafting table I have a space taking computer.
To make a long story short: Don't knock hand drafting.. it was good for it's time and it's still good for communicating design ideas. It's easier to learn and much more intuitive for the beginning designer. But over the long hall with better design modeling and faster computers CAD is the much better way to go. It should stream-line the design process, make the construction process smoother, and allow us to improve the way we visualize and test our designs in the concept stages.
Remember this: 10 years ago more people ran AutoCAD for DOS than had AutoCAD for Windows. That's Windows 3.1. Pretty Windows 95 didn't yet exist. The 486 computer was brand new. No one knew what a Pentium computer was. 3DStudio didn't exist. The majority of people in the workforce hadn't used CAD for more than 2 years. I remember being the expert and CAD guru with 4 years of computer experience.
While CAD might still need to improve on usability, it still kicks behind when it comes to efficiency and productivity. And look how far we came in the past 10 years... just imagine what 2014 has in store...
...and I forgot to mention the digitizer board... you know you're a veteran of the CAD wars if you still know what a puck and stylus is or if you know what the AutoCAD opening menu looked like... or know the joke of ...god forbid ....a person typing REGEN on your computer and hitting the space bar 50 times... you might as well go out for a long lunch because it will be 2 hours before you get to draw again...
I remember that post as it was me who started it. I firmly believe that anyone interested in learning CAD should first learn basic geometry. I feel this would be very beneficial because drawing by hand on a board is an art form in itself. I remember when i was at university studying for my degree in Interior Architecture. All of our projects had to be drawn by hand and if anyone did theirs on CAD, they were criticized for not knowing how to draw. As i excelled at this, i wanted to learn CAD because i knew that in the real world, things aren't done like that anymore. It was funny though, i remember staying up all night sometimes drawing where as i could do the same drawings now at a better quality and in less that a couple of hours. I think CAD is a brilliant way to draw but i think people need to learn by hand too so they fully understand the benefits.Quote:
Originally Posted by mes0945
ok, you know what I failed to mention???????? when I had to learn 2000 cold, I also had started taking 3D classes.......!!!!!!!!!! WHAT WAS I THINKING??????????? luckily, I had a couple guys in the class with me........well, they were in the next part of the class, but met with my class........& they were right there to tell me what worked, what didn't, why my lighting looked flat, why my grass was in the middle of the sky, etc. I had been so confused on so much of it, I was about ready to take my "F" in the class & try to take it over, BUT, a lightbulb went off! the 2nd to last class, I FINALLY got everything to work (shadows included!!!!!!!), & I think the entire class heard my relief!!!!!!!!! I sat in the back, mind you.......I didn't want anyone to see how badly I was screwing my project up!!!!!!!!!!!!! anyway, I will never forget what my instructor said that night.........."hey! T's finally figured it out!!!!!" I did manage to get a "B" in the class, but to this day, I still avoid 3D like the plague! I've had 1 job that's used 3D & there were countless times my steel columns ended up, like, 1000ft below sea level!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm still very partial to board drafting...........just had to voice that...........
;)
have a good day!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been drafting for a LONG TIME. I took design drafting in HS and JC. My first job out of JC was at Newport News Ship Building in VA. The drawing board was about 12 feet long. They issued me a T-square. I had to buy the rest of my equipment myself. We drafted right on the roll of vellum and unrolled as we needed more length. It was not unusual to have a 20' long drawing. Did I mention the drawing board did not tilt? There was a lot of lettering. I got pretty good at that, though I still "feel the pain" from hours of leaning over a drawing board.
In my current position as Chief Drafter with a major electric power company in Mississippi,
I implimented AutoCAD in 1986, starting with version 2.5 and the digitizers on IBM AT PCs runnning at 6 Mhz. Computers have changed a lot since then. I have the AutoCAD 2005 disks sitting on my desk now but I don't know if I'll install them. there are many things about the 2000-2004 versions I don't like. But HEY, it ALL beats the backache and sore wrist and hands from the old drawing board.
For all you young drafters/designers out there- trust a guy who has been around a while. CAD is a lot better!
I started using AutoCAD in the summer of 1986 between my junior and senior years. Went to work with my dad who had is own civil engineering company and he just sat me in front of the computer and digitizer and said just start playing around. I figured most things out for my self. After a couple of weeks he started actually having me draw things. He was still doing someboard drafting and labeling. Then after I graduated and went to the local C.C. I took a Drafting I and learned board drafting and lettering. Then when I took Drafting II it was half board drafting and half CADAM drafting. But, in the mean-time I worked for my dad using AutoCAD (ver 2.86 I think). Then I finally landed a job for (on my own) doing AutoCAD for a Mech/Elec contractor and learned some of the menu/lisp customization from their CAD guy. Learning on the board was helpful but I had no talent for board drafting. Just my 2 cents.:mrgreen:
I had a conversation like his just last night. I took a board drafting class when I was a freshman in high school, and then again when I was in junior college. I won't compare the processes involved with board work versus using a mouse; there ain't no comparison.
But I do appreciate the training on a board. I don't know if there is a more affective way to get across the ideas of presentation and line weights then when you have to do it with a pencil. Any new hire looks much better to me if they have had some board work in their background.
Nice to have appreciation for those drafters who learned on the board, but, how many places still teach board drafting? By the time that i got to community college (1999), there were no boards, it was all CAD. There was one teacher who had us do one project on paper, but, people did really miserably.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddraper
me again!Quote:
Originally Posted by mes0945
:)
anyway, I'm glad that I learned on board.......computers & I still don't mix very well & if I'd had to learn CAD right away, I'd have given up on my dream! sure, CAD frustrates me still; sure, I wish I could just draw something on a piece of paper that looks exactly like what my engineer wants it to look, BUT........I think for those of us who can do both, just differences in experiences & who knows what can happen!
also, I don't believe they teach anything having to do with board around here..........HS or college level. my old HS got CAD the year after I graduated...........I was soooooooo relieved!
see ya!
I agree with Doug Draper. Knowledge of how to do it on the drawing board helps a designer/drafter have a better understanding of presentation. The concept of line weight is harder to grasp if you've never done it with a pencil. I did it by hand for 18 years before switching to CAD. I prefer CAD, especially for the repetitive stuff.
I believe the community colleges here in South Mississippi that have drafting/design courses still take a few weeks to teach board drafting before they get into CAD. Even the University of Southern Mississippi does it that way. You don't have to be an expert on the board, just understand the concepts.
I don't know if the local vocational school still teaches on the board. It did when I was going. The first year thats all we did. Once in awhile we would turn on those computers. The second year was mainly CAD. My teacher retired, so I don't know how the new one teaches. But the tables are still there.
I completely agree with ddraper and the others. I hire new CADers and nearly all of them don't understand the importance of drafting principles. I know that they've practically stopped teaching drafting (as I'm certified to teach it, but no one has the "need" anymore), but the need for teaching drafting principles still exists!
These new CAD techs don't know the difference between an object line and an extension line, or that hidden lines should be a lighter line weight than the object line. They cross a dimension line or leader line over an extension line and don't break the extension line. They also place text anywhere on the drawing instead of planning the drawing so that the text neatly surrounds the object or plan being drawn. CAD is more like a game to them (hence the term, "CADers" similar to gamers), with all its pretty colors and 3D capabilities, than an accurate design and drafting tool. They don't understand that we couldn't draw exactly to scale because of the interpretation of the lead width on the paper could have made the measurement an 1" or more off. And, that's just the basics...most cannot see the object they're drawing in their head - to be able to see the different views, to know whether or not what they're seeing on the computer screen is correct in either 2D or 3D.
But, in all fairness, I must say that without the new CADers out there, I might have been stuck using the same ole commands I learned back on v.1.0 in college! You know...line, circle, erase, rotate & copy!
One more thing: I have observed that CAD has allowed us to produce drawings in record times; however, it has also allowed the engineer or architect to change their mind more frequently prior to a submittal. So, in reality when I'm putting my fee estimates together, I'm still estimating nearly the same amount of time to produce the finished product. Technology is grand, isn't it? It allows us to change our minds more in the same amount of time!
In defense of all the drafters that have only learned on the computer: I don't blame them, I blame their educational programs.
First I wish to state that I've done both board drafting and CAD drafting in my career. When I was originally taught drafting I was taught on the boards. We had an entire class dedicated to basic drafting techniques. True, we learned the basics of drawing views, projections, line types, etc. but the course was graded hardest when it came to correct drafting practice. If you could produce clean drawings with nice lineweights you could pass the class even if you didn't solve the problem 100% correctly. By the end of your schooling problem solving was graded the hardest, but by then all the basic techniques had already been instilled in your drafting ability.
I took 3 years off from school to do drafting professionally and make enough money to go back to college and earn a professional degree. During that time I learned CAD drafting and quickly became the office expert in that field.
By the time I came back to college board drafting was being phased out. We had one year on the board and the rest of the time was dedicated to either board drafting or CAD, depending on your situation and what the instructor required. The CAD classes were taught with the focus on getting the basics of views, projections, and basic problem solving correct. Lineweights, etc were not focused on as that time was used to teach the basic function of CAD. Then when you entered the higher level classes.. the classes that taught the harder design concepts... lineweights, etc. were not stressed because by that time historically all their students had always been good at it. As a result, you might lose up to 10% of your grade for bad drafting practice but you could still pull an A or B depending on how good you were at creative problem solving.
As a result, schools are teaching the basics... unfortunately they are the basics of CAD and design and not traditional drafting practice. Start grading for bad drafting skills and you'll see students that want to learn to get better at the basic techniques.
So don't blame the "CADers" whom the majority of them can draw on CAD better than the majority of your office... because they were taught to draw that way. The majority of your office didn't have the advantage of such a drawing education but they did get better at CAD slowly over time... which is why your board drafters are so much better at CAD today than they were just a few years ago. On the other hand, the office veterans WERE taught the importance of lineweights, drafting techniques etc. so their drawings tend to look MUCH better than the typical "CADer" because they were trained that way. These "CADers" will get slowly better in time with quality much like your board drafters got slowly better using CAD.
So if anyone is to blame.. it's the educational system which doesn't focus on the basics like it once did.. stop trying to get the "CADers" to reform, it's not their fault. We need to work with the educational system and get them to emphasize the basics again.
Here's an old, old song.
"Youngsters aren't taught to be draughtsmen, they're taught to be CAD operators."
For example - what is the correct ratio between text height and pen width? Those of you that learned on the board will know; most of the others won't.
I started with Autocad in 1984 and had been on the board for fifteen years before that - the only reason I wish I had been born later is that I would have been younger and quicker to adapt when I first got my hands on computers.
John B
Forty years ago this month I picked up my first drafting instruments and except for five years of college (it was the 70s after all) drafting has been a major focus in my life. I was first introduced to computerized drafting in 1969; at that time it was just writing up command codes in FORTRAN for someone else to key onto punch cards and I judged it to be a novelty and a tedious one at that.
Ten years later, in the first place I actually saw a computer doing the work, the technology looked to me to be exactly the same - 8" stacks of punch cards if only one of which was not perfect, the plot was wasted. I was still not impressed. A few years later a different employer contemplating a computer had his architects designing a "clean room" for it, but were seriously debating on whether or not to equip the thing with a hard disk, or just use floppies and tapes.
I was taught by an old-timer who could tell in a glance if a line was short or long by a hundredth and could get an accurate drawing in less time than the senior techs ( the only ones of course who were able to touch the computers) could program and plot one. Mine would also have the same quality and character my old teacher insisted upon as opposed to their monotone creations.
It was another ten years before a broken wrist gave me entry to the world of AutoCAD (r10). I never returned to the board, but I also refused to compromise the quality and technique that had carried me to that point. I found it quite easy to translate my hand skills to the computer output.
I agree with others regarding training cad operators are receiving. I use that term deliberately as only a very few I would classify as even a tradesman and even fewer as a technician. Certainly none could be considered a draftsman. The new people we see have no comprehension of line quality or technique. When told to make something bold to let it stand out on the sheet, they go immediately to a 1.2mm pen width and are surprised when they have to edit and re plot the wasted sheets when the utility symbols and 0.1" text is a blur. Their drawings are littered with pieces of text that vary in height and style for no apparent reason and match no size or spacing standard known to man. Some areas of their drawings are so densely packed that major reworking is needed to do very minor changes, while huge spaces are left empty. Sadly, these are the best people we have seen come in over the last five years.
I have had only one major problem adjusting to using AutoCAD. The design review process now demands that even the first submittal that used to need only basic information to see if a design concept would be approved now requires a finished quality fully annotated set of plans complete with details and quantities. Much of this work will not survive the first review and the time required to generate it is wasted.
The Dinosaur