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Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Looking for some input with regard to a new Civil 3D workstation specifically.
What workstations are you using/building/buying?
For my next workstation, I'm hoping to have an i7-7700K +/- 4.5 Ghz or higher, stick with 32 GB RAM but want it to be +/- 3000 Mhz or faster. I'll swap out OEM drive for a Samsung 960 EVO/PRO NVMe SSD (more on that below), and perhaps have an 8 GB NVIDIA P4000 GPU (although with the other specs, anything 4 GB or higher would be great). I confess that the GPU was tentatively selected based on price-point alone, and I've not tested anything better than my old K4000 to-date.
I know there's a lot of articles, and posts for workstations running AutoCAD (which Civil 3D is built on), but Civil 3D is another animal altogether, performance wise. We're not at a stage where we're considering thin clients + VDI/RDS + vGPU, so I'm looking for client (desktop) specs, and/or lessons learned. We're just upgrading user workstations at this time.
I recently started looking at what new technologies have to offer, and the first thing I tested was introducing a Samsung 960 EVO PCIe+NVMe SSD. I was surprised that it was actually cheaper than the equivalent capacity Samsung 850 PRO SATA SSD, and that it listed exponentially better performance. I have to say, that making the Samsung 960 EVO PCIe+NVMe SSD drive my Civil 3D Temp folder alone, is the single best performance upgrade I've had to-date. For some reason latest Dell BIOS+UEFI doesn't support PCIe+NVMe as my boot drive? Grrr.
Using the same project data set on my same server/network, I shaved +/- 20 seconds off the Civil 3D drawing open times (depending on drawing complexity, how many XREFs, etc.). If I open 50 drawings per work day, that saves me +/- 17 Mins, which doesn't seem like a lot, right?
Extrapolating that 17 mins per work day over 5 work days per week, at 50 work weeks per year (17 mins x 250 work days), that's 70.8 hours (or 8.8 work days, or 1.77 work weeks) per year. That's a lot of real time and money I'm being paid to just open drawings (not even work on them)!
... Now, here's where you ask your manager to consider how much they pay an employee for 1.77 work weeks per year, and how many CAD users they have? Haha
Here's my current workstation's specs:
Dell Precision T3600
Windows 10x64 Enterprise
Intel Hex-Core Xeon E5 1650 3.2 Ghz (3.80 Ghz max turbo)
32 GB RAM @ 1600 Mhz
3 GB NVIDIA Quadro K4000 GPU + 3 x 24" Dell Ultrasharp monitors
256 GB Samsung 850 PRO SATA SSD (Boot)
250 GB Samsung 960 EVO PCIe+NVMe SSD (My C3D Temp, Support, Plot, etc folder location)
1 TB 10K RPM WD Velociraptor HDD (Apps, Backups, Data, VM's, etc.)
I've historically had Dell Precision workstations, but am disappointed that they're all Xeon now, in lieu of offering i7, and cap out @ 3.5 Ghz which isn't much of an upgrade to what I have now. The Optiplex, and XPS systems are equally disappointing.
I've looked at Xi Computers, but find their website to be cumbersome, and the systems seem to be way overpriced as well (despite getting more of the specs I want).
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackBox
What workstations are you using/building/buying?
All Civil 3D shop here.
Here are the specs on the last few we purchased. These were specifically spec'ed out to be better than our normal workstations. So far, so good.
i7-7700K @ 4.20GHz (liquid cooled)
64 GB Ram DDR4
(2) 512 GB PCIe SSD drives, striped (RAID-0).
Quadro P1000
Win 10
(2) HP E271i (27") monitors
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
I've bought a couple of Xi boxes over the years, and they've been stellar performers and highly reliable (& upgradeable!!). For max performance today though, i'd look very hard at BOXX.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
All Civil 3D shop here.
Here are the specs on the last few we purchased. These were specifically spec'ed out to be better than our normal workstations. So far, so good.
i7-7700K @ 4.20GHz (liquid cooled)
64 GB Ram DDR4
(2) 512 GB PCIe SSD drives, striped (RAID-0).
Quadro P1000
Win 10
(2) HP E271i (27") monitors
What brand / manufacturer did you buy that spec from (sounds fantastic!)?
What RAID Controller are you using; PERC or Software RAID?
Any HDD for system image backup when RAID 0 causes a bad sector, or otherwise corrupts the Virtual Disk? Or does IT just have generic image for CAD user on standby?
Cheers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
cadtag
I've bought a couple of Xi boxes over the years, and they've been stellar performers and highly reliable (& upgradeable!!). For max performance today though, i'd look very hard at BOXX.
Thank you, as well - I appreciate the recommendation.
If you're still with 'the firm', what's their current performance spec?
Cheers
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Also, forgot to inquire about the use of Gigabit or 10 Gigabit network (switch, NICs, etc)?
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
still hanging in with the borg & mixing things up, doing a dock for Miami Beach today, apartment complex yesterday, state park tomorrow.
'official' specs are pretty mediocre, essentially off Dell's <quote> workstation<unquote> spec -- waste of money Xeon chips, over-priced 16G ECC RAM, and unsupported Nvidia card.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cadtag
still hanging in with the borg & mixing things up, doing a dock for Miami Beach today, apartment complex yesterday, state park tomorrow.
Cool - I just finished another roundabout yesterday, I'm currently doing some scale entry/exit concepts to increase capacity at the County dump, then I need to get a plan revision out for a Senator's new canoe/kayak park, and that 1,000 AC subdivision just got started again. I wouldn't be me if I didn't mix things up a bit too. :beer: Haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cadtag
'official' specs are pretty mediocre, essentially off Dell's <quote> workstation<unquote> spec -- waste of money Xeon chips, over-priced 16G ECC RAM, and unsupported Nvidia card.
Figures; those setups might work well for the Revit & 'Max render users, but doesn't help anyone in an AutoCAD product. Thanks anywho!
I'm anxious to find out more about RK's setup (above). :mrgreen:
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Do you have an Enterprise agreement with Dell? If so chances of getting a non-workstation computer are pretty much nil.
Unless you're getting a multi-socket board or a monster 10+ core Xeon, that won't be of much benefit over a desktop processor for rendering either. And that's assuming a GPU-based renderer like Cycles isn't being used.
There's a lot of movement towards visualization, pre-design studies with Infraworks, rendering for sales presentations, etc. You just KNOW the bosses are going to be asking "I've seen a bunch of pictures/movies/etc., can we do anything like that to make us look better?" So don't quiiiite count out rendering operations just yet. No need to go overboard (recent post in the Autodesk Maya forum had someone switching from a 1080 to dual Quadro P6000's... overkill much...) but it's worth considering.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackBox
What brand / manufacturer did you buy that spec from (sounds fantastic!)?
What RAID Controller are you using; PERC or Software RAID?
Any HDD for system image backup when RAID 0 causes a bad sector, or otherwise corrupts the Virtual Disk? Or does IT just have generic image for CAD user on standby?
1. Private builder, white-box.
2. Not sure. I can find out if you would like.
3. No secondary drive(s). Users shouldn't be saving anything worth saving to the local drives. If/when it dies, we'll replace and re-image.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
1. Private builder, white-box.
2. Not sure. I can find out if you would like.
3. No secondary drive(s). Users shouldn't be saving anything worth saving to the local drives. If/when it dies, we'll replace and re-image.
That would be most helpful; please and thank you, RK! :beer:
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
We are in the process from switching from Custom (mostly because of speed of service) built machines back to Dell
My current machine is a Precision 3620
I7-7700K @ 4.2 ghz
32 gb ram
NVIDIA Quadro M4000
Single 512 gb SSD
Windows 10
3 - 24" ASUS monitors
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Just ran a quick comparison build, attempting the +/- same specs for each XI, and Boxx Computers, and it looks as though you get more bang for your buck (or same bang for less) with XI.
Boxx Apexx 2 2403 - $3,413
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (OC to 4.8 Ghz)
32 GB DDR4-2400 (4 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P1000 4 GB GPU
240 GB SATA SSD (no brand) (will be replaced with Samsung 960 M.2 SSD)
** Shipping not included
Xi MTower PCIe Workstation - $3,040 (same bang for less... and a bit more?)
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (OC to 4.8 Ghz)
32 GB DDR4-3600 (4 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P1000 4 GB GPU
256 Samsung® 850 PRO SATA SSD (will be replaced with Samsung 960 M.2 SSD)
** Shipping not included
Xi MTower PCIe Workstation - $3,330 (more bang for buck... and for less?)
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (OC to 4.8 Ghz)
32 GB DDR4-3600 (4 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P2000 5 GB GPU
512 Samsung® 960 PRO M.2 SSD
** Shipping not included
Still not sure how comfortable I feel with being dependent on branded custom builds for our daily work, but Dell Precision and HP Z workstations are now both entirely dependent on slower Xeon CPUs with 4-12+ cores which are absolutely worthless using AutoCAD products... Until one-day, Autodesk decides to go multi-threaded... I'm not getting into that conversation here; just a statement of fact when developing specs for new hardware.
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
I think Boxx does a fair bit of tweaking and overclocking with what they sell, so may not be readily repairable/replaceable with off the shelf bit, bu both my Xi machines were put together with normal, if high-end components, from PSU to case to motherboards (Asus MBs for both of them). Basically the kind of stuff I would use to build a custom, one-off workstation from individual pieces from New Egg. Just already assembled, tested, and burned in. The older one is on my list to rebuild from the case in, (after I get a roundtoit lined up that is... :-)
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cadtag
I think Boxx does a fair bit of tweaking and overclocking with what they sell, so may not be readily repairable/replaceable with off the shelf bit, bu both my Xi machines were put together with normal, if high-end components, from PSU to case to motherboards (Asus MBs for both of them). Basically the kind of stuff I would use to build a custom, one-off workstation from individual pieces from New Egg. Just already assembled, tested, and burned in. The older one is on my list to rebuild from the case in, (after I get a roundtoit lined up that is... :-)
Thanks, cadtag - I'll reach out to Boxx for clarification. :beer:
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
I heard that another firm recently got all new HP Z workstations, so I looked into them a bit more.
Apparently Autodesk has standardized on HP Z workstations as well, and they post a bunch of marketing fodder about AEC Suite, AutoCAD, etc. and even say their certified for Civil 3D. From a quick perusal of their hardware, it appears that the HP Z240 is the only workstation that offers Intel i7 processor as an 'option' (nothing at HP seems to be customizable, all pre-configured?).
<Several minutes pass>
Finally! It took me a while, but I finally found where you could customize the Z240; here's a HP retail comparable (no business discounts applied, numbers straight from their retail site):
$2,242.56 - HP Z240 Customized
Intel Core i7-7700K 4.2Ghz (4.5Ghz w/ Turbo), & Intel HD Graphics 630 (Integrated)
16 GB DDR4-2400 non-ECC RAM (2 x 8 GB, 4 DIMM)**
1 TB 7200 RPM SATA 8 GB SSHD
8 GB NVIDIA Quadro P4000 GPU
$330 +/-
512 GB Samsung 960 Pro NVMe/M.2 SSD (purchased separately)
$2,572.56 - Total
** 32 GB RAM (2 x 16 GB) brings the total up to $2,842.66
This configuration would use the Samsung 960 Pro in the 1 x M.2 slot, but would allow me to upgrade RAM, GPU, SSD, 10G LAN, etc. down the road, and I can always add an HP Z Turbo Drive G2 (Z2 MB for Z240 only) for a fee, which is basically an NVMe SSD in a PCIe adapter with a heatsinc to cool the NVMe SSD.
So far, this is the best, and most cost-effective configuration I've seen.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
After only a +/- 5 min phone call, HP dropped that system down to $2,000 for one (1) system, should I be interested in trying HP (as a long-time Dell business customer, personally as well as professionally).
They also offered a more substantial discount, for setting up an HP business account, and buying five (5) or more systems.
... I just might become an HP customer this year.
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Great thread gentlemen. I have been looking at computer specs because most of our CAD stations are at the end of their life (5 years). We have a mix of Xi and Lenovo. The Xi computers worked great at the beginning, but with 5 years of install/uninstall they are getting slower. Sounds like the HP Z240 is the way to go.
Have any of you researched virtualization? I know several companies that have virtualized their Autodesk CAD software to run off the server, and had great success. They claim it is better performance than a workstation. Even though Autodesk does not support virtualization of Civil 3D, I know an IT consultant that made it work. It is expensive upgrading the servers to handle it, but you save money on the workstations.
Not trying to hijack your thread, just curious about your thoughts. Workstation vs virtualization?
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dkruelle
Great thread gentlemen. I have been looking at computer specs because most of our CAD stations are at the end of their life (5 years). We have a mix of Xi and Lenovo. The Xi computers worked great at the beginning, but with 5 years of install/uninstall they are getting slower. Sounds like the HP Z240 is the way to go.
Have any of you researched virtualization? I know several companies that have virtualized their Autodesk CAD software to run off the server, and had great success. They claim it is better performance than a workstation. Even though Autodesk does not support virtualization of Civil 3D, I know an IT consultant that made it work. It is expensive upgrading the servers to handle it, but you save money on the workstations.
Not trying to hijack your thread, just curious about your thoughts. Workstation vs virtualization?
Thanks for participating!
Building on my comment about VDI (virtualization) in the OP, we're not interested in that now for two main reasons:
1. There exists a tipping point where the cost of VDI procurement and implementation is worthwhile, based on how many users (and offices?) you'd otherwise have to buy workstations for, as compared to the VDI server, network, and thin client infrastructure improvements. We're a small shop with only a handful of CAD users, and for the cost, we can (at least currently) get way more production bang for buck in workstation upgrades. I would have to double, triple, or even quadruple the number of users here before we approach that tipping point, methinks. With the HP Z240's (above), I can replace everyone's workstation for less than $10K (with bulk order discount, and free shipping; not including monitors).
2. The owners here are already struggling to keep up with our current, 'advanced' client/server topology, which by year's end will be 100% out of warranty. To boot, my Surveyor still uses AutoCAD 2000 + Eagle Point on WinXPx86 daily. It was like pulling teeth to get him to try using a GoPro to walk a stockpile so I could use ReCap to derive surface volumes. Haha For these reasons, especially lately, I end up documenting workflows, processes, etc. and showing the owner the dollars he's paying us to NOT be productive, and then he better gets what I'm trying to accomplish (if that makes sense?).
Separately, I did reach out to my Dell rep, and this is the best configuration they've offered me so far:
Dell Precision T3620 Mini Tower
Intel Core i7-7700K 4.2Ghz (4.5Ghz w/ Turbo), & Integrated Graphics
16 GB DDR4-2400 non-ECC RAM (2 x 8 GB, 4 DIMM)
They don't offer the 8 GB NVIDIA Quadro P4000 (2017) GPU as an option for some reason, only the 8 GB NVIDIA Quadro M4000 (2015) which is 90% less capable. Trying to confirm that there is no form-factor conflict (meaning that if I buy P4000 separately, it will fit in the mini tower form-factor case).
The Precision 3620 motherboard also only has one M.2 slot, so I'm having her see if there's a hardware RAID controller that will hold dual NVMe SSD given the limited PCIe slots. If not, then I would have one NVMe SSD in the M.2 slot, and a second in a PCIe adapter and be relegated to software RAID. Instead, I'd rather just get a StarTech PCIe 2xNVMe SSD + RAID controller.
It is nice to learn that there is a Dell option, although I'd be remiss to not say I am still quite disappointed in the only option (certainly so far). Haha
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dkruelle
Not trying to hijack your thread, just curious about your thoughts. Workstation vs virtualization?
Workstation all the way. Partly as a matter of philosophy, but also as a matter of reliability. Unless you can afford to build a highly redundant back end, with 5-9's reliability, you are looking at a single point of failure to cripple you operation. Even worse, it's a cascade of multiple single points of failure. Bad enough that stand-alone licenses can be shut down by the internet license servers when Amazon mis-configures their stuff, but they at least have the deep pockets to try to achieve reliability. Joe AEC company? not so much.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
We've been using HP workstations for at least 10 years. They have been very reliable and IT likes them. Since we have not used any other brand I cannot speak for their relative performance. We have used the following HP workstations over the last 10 years:
Model Processor RAM
XW4400 2.6 Core 2 Duo 4096
XW4600 3.0 Core 2 Duo 4096
Z420 XEON Quad-Core 3.7 16GB
Z440 XEON Quad-Core 3.5 16GB
As you can see these our latest systems have XEON processors. I notice that you are specifying i7's and no one is recommending XEONs. Are i7's better for AutoCAD than XEONs? Are THESE benchmarks test a good indicator of how they will perform in AutoCAD?
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Until Autocad starts utilizing multi core, I think the general consensus is the faster the single core speed, the better AutoCAD will run, hence the reason for the I7, which can run at 4.2 compared to the 3.5 or 3.7 of the Xeon
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ccowgill
Until Autocad starts utilizing multi core, I think the general consensus is the faster the single core speed, the better AutoCAD will run, hence the reason for the I7, which can run at 4.2 compared to the 3.5 or 3.7 of the Xeon
i.e. for a fixed budget of $X you'll get a lower speed Xeon compared to a non-workstation processor. Or when using comparable clock speeds the Xeon will be more expensive.
Not certain that multi-threaded performance would make Xeon any more attractive by cost, performance, or otherwise. In order to do so there would be a need for the numbers of cores typically provided by multiple processors or the wigged-out insane ones (12 - 18 core per processor). But for day to day engineering work anything beyond 8 cores (high end gaming processor) isn't going to see much use.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I did not go back and read each and every post here, and I ran across this recently.
https://techevate.com/cad-hardware-choices-cpus/
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
I was just about to go find Steve's blog post and post the link here myself.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
the i7 is so yesterday.... BOXX is now shipping an i9 X-series CPU, workstation model APEXX 4 6201
whether it's bang-buck ration hits your sweet spot is an personal call.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cadtag
the i7 is so yesterday.... BOXX is now shipping an i9 X-series CPU, workstation model APEXX 4 6201
whether it's bang-buck ration hits your sweet spot is an personal call.
Boxx instead recommends the Apexx 2-2403 for Civil 3D (just asked), they said they'd discount my configuration (waiting on that email back), but here's the retail quote from the website:
Boxx Apexx 2 2403 - $4,722
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (OC to 4.8 Ghz)
16 GB DDR4-2400 (2 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPU
2x OEM 512 GB M.2 SSD (RAID 0)
I can get the same specs (albeit air cooled, not liquid cooled like Boxx) from:
Dell Precision T3620 - $2,380.44
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (4.5 Ghz Turbo)
16 GB DDR4-2400 (2 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPU (includes the 365W PSU upgrade)
2x OEM 512 GB M.2 SSD (RAID 0)
(that's $1,623.95 for system unit + PSU upgrade, and $756.49 GPU sold separately, not factory installed)
... Or:
HP Z240 - $2,528.81
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (4.5 Ghz Turbo)
16 GB DDR4-2400 (2 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPU (includes the 400W PSU OOTB)
1TB 7200 RPM SATA 8 GB SSHD
2x Samsung 960 PRO 512 GB M.2 SSD (RAID 0)
(that's $1,868.81 for system unit after business discount and a 10% discount code, and $660 Samsung 960 PRO NVMe SSD sold separately, not factory installed)
Not sure about you, but I'm not going to notice the 0.03Ghz when I'm spending $2,193 less for the HP, or $2,342 less for the Dell... For the same money, I can also get dual 32" 4K Ultrasharp (Dell) or DreamColor (HP) monitors.
Cheers
[Edit] - I am very interested in the Boxx setup; I like their products, the thought they've put into them, how versatile they are, how powerful they can be on smaller sized systems, and that they're made in US. Just not sure that I can justify the difference in price, given that we cannot even go see one in action locally.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
@cadtag -
Do you happen to have access to a Boxx machine? Have you run any benchmarks on rebuilding Corridors, Surfaces, or even basic things like switching layout tabs, etc.?
Speaking to my Boxx rep, they're designed to operate at peak overclocked speed at-all-times, as opposed to peak on-demand until they overheat and scale back to their 'B' cycle (in air cooled systems). That is of significant value, if their estimate of 15-20% more productivity is even remotely accurate.
Cheers
[Edit] - Actually, feedback from anyone with a liquid cooled system, would be most appreciated.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
I'd be interested to know if the P4000 really provides any perceivable difference to an end user of Civil 3D, over say, the P1000 ?
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
I'd be interested to know if the P4000 really provides any perceivable difference to an end user of Civil 3D, over say, the P1000 ?
Me too! :beer: Haha
My reason(s) for selecting the Quadro P4000 are shown here, specifically double the memory interface, +/- triple the memory bandwidth & CUDA cores as the Quadro P1000, and for only an extra +/- $350-400... I've had 32 GB RAM for the past few years, and whish I'd have instead put those few $100's in the GPU, so that's what I'm trying to accomplish now, where 32 GB of DDR4 RAM is a +/- $350-ish upgrade to the 16 GB.
That is also why I worked with my Dell rep to upgrade the PSU in the Precision 3620 (to run the Quadro P4000), given the 85% performance gains over that of the Quadro M4000 shown here, the latter being what Dell currently makes available to the Precision 3620.
Where I am a bit concerned, is with regard to other apps such as InfraWorks... Not that it could be any worse than the 3 GB NVIDIA Quadro K4000 I have now, but will it (the P4000) really benefit those other apps which seem to do better with Gaming GPUs as I understand it... Kind of hard to have one for each scenario (and assign each app to the desired GPU), especially when both Dell or HP system units only provide one PCIe Gen 3 x16 slot.
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Yeah, you are light years ahead of me when it comes to knowing about all of the specs on these cards and such, but I've yet to personally witness a case where a user with a better* display adapter has a better user experience in Civil 3D than a user with the lower model. Now when you get into other apps, such as Infraworks or Revit, then I can't comment. I also understand that using 3DOrbit in C3D on a giant surface with dozens of pipe networks, is different that working in WCS on a layout sheet where everything is drawn flat. We do a lot more of the latter.
* meaning, a more expensive adapter with better specifications
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
Yeah, you are light years ahead of me when it comes to knowing about all of the specs on these cards and such, but I've yet to personally witness a case where a user with a better* display adapter has a better user experience in Civil 3D than a user with the lower model. Now when you get into other apps, such as Infraworks or Revit, then I can't comment. I also understand that using 3DOrbit in C3D on a giant surface with dozens of pipe networks, is different that working in WCS on a layout sheet where everything is drawn flat. We do a lot more of the latter.
* meaning, a more expensive adapter with better specifications
Nah - I'd like to believe my inner geek is just business minded; in terms of cost-benefit, I am good about considering options, as you get what you pay for, but never have to pay retail. :mrgreen:
I do have some limited first-hand experience with seeing the difference between lesser and better* cards....
The workstations my peers received as upgrades prior to my being hired, included dual 1 GB AMD Radeon HD 7470 (2 GB total), whereas after being hired I opted for the 3 GB NVIDIA Quadro K4000 (thinking a bit more here and a lot more RAM would be great)... Just recently I was showing a peer who's never really worked with pipe networks how they can orbit (or just use the View Cube to get perspective view), and change the View Style to show various levels of detail, and their system completely locks up for a bit (+30 seconds) where mine does not (+7 seconds?).
I have used Infraworks a few times for a recent project proposal, etc. and it was light years faster than Civil 3D - I mean it, measurably faster and with much better level of detail - I honestly wanted to (and still have yet to) test, if it was faster to do a preliminary road layout (alignment and profile), and export to Civil 3D, than to do the same early-stage conceptual work in Civil 3D (without any Infraworks).
The only performance issues with Infraworks came when I realized (after the fact), that the first rule of Infraworks Club is 'You don't save anything in the Infraworks model folder'. Apparently, what is added there gets uploaded/downloaded each time you change your Proposal view selection, and when I had mistakenly saved 4.77 GB of animated video rendered scenes to be included in our PowerPoint presentation, well, it got really ugly for a time. Haha
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Well, I've done it now... I met with the owner and went over the good (Dell), the better (HP), and then best (Boxx) workstation configurations I was able to source this week.
He agrees that Boxx while pricey, would be worthwhile for our dedicated C3D production users, but that the remaining (call them half-time?) users might not need quite so much power.
He wanted to get new monitors as well, and while the 32" 4K monitors are wonderful, you can get dual 27" 4K monitors for the price of a single 32" 4K monitor, so I recommended the dual 27"... Also made the point that I'd rather have the best (Boxx) workstation and keep the 24" non-4K monitors we have now, and upgrade the monitors another time later this year to reduce cost now, because the workstation is where the productivity gains will mostly come from.
He agreed, and liked that I thought to suggest we break all this up into logical segments to benefit multiple users by reallocation - by that I mean, if user A gets a new workstation, then reallocate their out-dated workstation to the Admin assistant, etc.
Also, in speaking with my Boxx rep, what I thought were OEM NVMe SSD's (above) ended up being Samsung 951 drives (Samsung's OEM poorer performing equivalent of the 950 Pro), and not some generic Lite-On drives, or something else.
However, the smallest Samsung 960 drives they'll sell are the 1 TB drives and cost prohibitive if you're seeking a RAID 0 configuration... So you may want to just source those 512 GB Samsung NVMe SSD's separately, and get a large capacity HDD for internal backups to keep the cost of the system down, etc. given that the Samsung 960 drives are so much better than the older 951 drives (just my $0.02).
... We'll see what happens in the next few weeks.
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackBox
HP Z240 - $2,528.81
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (4.5 Ghz Turbo)
16 GB DDR4-2400 (2 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPU (includes the 400W PSU OOTB)
1TB 7200 RPM SATA 8 GB SSHD
2x Samsung 960 PRO 512 GB M.2 SSD (RAID 0)
(that's $1,868.81 for system unit after business discount and a 10% discount code, and $660 Samsung 960 PRO NVMe SSD sold separately, not factory installed)
Are you saying that only the 2nd [960 Pro NVMe SSD] HDD is purchased/installed separately ?
That is how the math works out. Just double checking.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
Are you saying that only the 2nd [960 Pro NVMe SSD] HDD is purchased/installed separately ?
That is how the math works out. Just double checking.
No, Samsung's 512 GB 960 Pro SSD are +/- $330 each.
HP does not sell the EVO, or Pro drives; perhaps the SM951/SM961 Samsung's lesser performing OEM equivalent to respective Pro drives?
Given that the Z240 only has one M.2 slot, HP confirmed that the PCIe Gen 3 x4 slot will perform at different bus speed than the M.2 slot (which the manual also lists as PCIe Gen 3 x4) - if that's true (that they each perform at different bus speeds despite the manual spec for same PCIe bus), then they would eventually fail in any RAID configuration.
That said, the Z240 does have two PCIe Gen 3 x4 slots - one is x4 slot & connector, the other is x16 connector wired as x4 - placing a single NVMe SSD in each of those slots using a PCIe adapter (I got mine for +/- $30), or perhaps HP's Turbo Z drive (I'm trying to see if they can be purchased empty, with no drives from HP now), then running dual NVMe SSD in RAID shouldn't be a problem.
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Just a follow up to share what we went with and why....
Firstly, we didn't go with the Boxx workstations (not even for some users), primarily due to cost, but also as we are in the process of reinstating company-provided healthcare which is more important (for us) than a more expensive workstation. I do still feel there is merit to Boxx's performance claims, but this is simply not the right time (again, for us) to go down that path... Maybe next time?
I couldn't justify the Dell Precision 3620 workstations, as I ended up being able to get the HP Z240 + the add-on NVMe SSDs for less than the Dell ($2,637.04/ea, before NVMe SSDs), and it (the HP) has a larger, 400W PSU OOTB, whereas the Dell had to be upgraded to 365W PSU. That said, I ended up buying HP Z240 workstations + Samsung 960 Pro NVMe SSDs (separately). For the latter reason above (i.e., Healthcare), we're holding off on 4K monitor upgrades until +/- January 2018.
I'm a little bummed that both the Dell and HP motherboard bus speeds are relegated to 2133 Mhz (only listed in the spec sheets), despite their both providing 2400 Mhz DDR4 RAM, as that precludes us from upgrading to 3000-3600 Mhz if we wanted to... So be it, that's still faster than my current workstation (1333Mhz motherboard bus w/1600Mhz DDR3 RAM).
Here's the breakdown of our new workstations, what things ended up costing, and/or where I got them:
HP Z240 Tower Workstation -
$1,908.04/ea (You can customize yours
here)
Intel i7 7700-K Quad-Core 4.2 Ghz (4.5 Ghz Turbo)
16 GB DDR4-2400 (2 - 8 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPU (includes the 400W PSU OOTB)
1TB 7200 RPM SATA 8 GB SSHD
Windows 10 Pro x64
HP 3/3/3 Tower Warranty
+ Free expedited shipping (they do not offer next business day)
Separately, I purchased Samsung 960 PRO 512 GB NVMe SSDs for
$299.99/ea
here, and the StarTech NVMe to PCIe adapters for
$24.99/ea from
here, both from TigerDirect.com
... Total build price ends up being +/- $2,558 per workstation.
Hope all of this helps some of you, as I didn't find much of anything out there when I started this task. :beer:
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Thanks for all the info @BlackBox.
I think I might double the RAM and drop the display adapter to a P1000 - for what we do.
It's probably close to a wash on $$$
:beer:
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
Thanks for all the info @BlackBox.
You're welcome, RK :beer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
I think I might double the RAM and drop the display adapter to a P1000 - for what we do.
It's probably close to a wash on $$$
You don't say!? Haha :lol:
You are correct that including the P4000 GPU with this workstation at time of order is a wash on $$$ as compared to 32 (4 x 8 ) GB RAM for same.
Difference being, it is NOT a wash on $$$ when upgrading GPU after the fact... Another 16 (2 x 8 ) GB of RAM is +/- $300 retail (will cost less) & slides right into the 2 empty RAM slots, whereas the P4000 is +/- $750-850 retail & P1000 gets taken out to sit on a shelf (unless one has a custom build w/MOBO that has 2+ PCIe Gen3 x16 slots on separate PCIe buses, of course? Haha). :beer:
Cheers
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackBox
<snip>
+ Free expedited shipping (they do not offer next business day)
<snip>
Despite HP not offering next business day shipping, the new workstations will be delivered by end of day tomorrow (had originally quoted me July 22, 2017). :mrgreen:
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
There have been some interesting developments, that I will share soon.
For now, just wanted to say that the new workstation is able to open a 24x36/ARCH D sheet drawing with existing, proposed, and four (4) 5000x5000 county aerials in 2 seconds for visual display (all aerials shown), 4 seconds for cursor to be usable (after acaddoc.lsp, apps, etc.). My previous workstation takes 5 and 10 seconds respectively for same.
Switching from Layout to Model tab is near instant using the new workstation (same drawing as above), whereas my previous workstation takes 4-6 seconds for same.
An impressive boost in productivity IMO, considering that I'm using the same version of Windows, Civil 3D & Profile (.ARG), on the same network data set... This is purely a hardware upgrade.
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
All other things equal I presume?
Are these drawings on a local SSD, or on a network location?
Quite frankly, the 5 and 10 second times sound pretty good. Maybe you can do a screencast and show us the 2 and 4 second time :-D
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Re: Civil 3D | High-Performance Workstations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
All other things equal I presume?
Are these drawings on a local SSD, or on a network location?
Everything equal, except for everything inside the workstation, yes. Haha
I actually closed the drawing to reopen it a couple of times, I didn't believe it. To verify the difference, I literally RDP into my previous workstation to open the same drawing. Both workstations have single Ethernet connection, in the same office (each office has 3-RJ45 ports, so same distance to on-premise file server), using the same data set located on the server.
Relevant settings:
Windows Performance Settings = Select 'Adjust for best performance', then enable 'Smooth edges of screen fonts' and 'Show thumbnails instead of icons'
Windows Page File = 65,536 MB (2x RAM per Autodesk here)
XLOADCTL = 2
XLOADPATH = C:\CAD\2016\temp
MAPIOPTIONS Command, Memory tab, 'Temporary File Location' (same as XLOADPATH)
MAPIOPTIONS Command, Memory tab, RAM Settings, 'Memory Limit' = 24,576 MB (75% of RAM) (still experimenting with what % of RAM to use per this, as 75% performs noticeably better than default of 25%)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rkmcswain
Quite frankly, the 5 and 10 second times sound pretty good. Maybe you can do a screencast and show us the 2 and 4 second time :-D
I'll see if I can make time to setup some samples without client information; I wouldn't want you to think I'm telling stories. :mrgreen:
Cheers