First ACA project - revisions? xref bind CTDs.

[Doove]

How do you guys revise drawings?

I mean, at the end of the day, the sheet drawing is the "Issued" product. You need to keep a copy of the sheet with no possibility of it changing.

I ask because using xrefs in plain old 2D works fine, I then use etransmit to bind xrefs and save the file to my "Issued Drwgs" folder with the rev number attached.

Trouble is, I am trying to do that with my first ACA project and using either etransmit or the external refs manager or export to autocad ALL cause MEP 2008 to CTD.

ALL dwgs have had recover run on them and audit & purge. I also get a Microsft C++ runtime error shortly after MEP CTDs.

My sheet dwg xrefs a view drwg which xrefs 3 or 4 constructs. So there are nested xrefs. If this is the problem then I need a new way to issue and revise drawings.

Any help would be REALLY aprreciated, this is destroying my soul...

cheers

Doove (using MEP2008 SP1)

[david_peterson]

I believe I mentioned this in your other post.
My question, why save the .dwg? Anyone can edit it easily no matter what you do to it. If you create a pdf of the sheet, save the pdf. That's your end of the day copy. If you issued the revision and need to modify the revision you've already done, you need to revise the sheet and re-issue it anyway (ie produce a new pdf)
Until you produce record drawings, those are working documents
Also, maybe I'm just dumb today, but what the heck do you mean by "AMEP CTD"?
If you are getting runtime errors, make sure you have all the service packs for both AMEP and whatever OS you are using.
Also, are you using PN or just x-reffing them yourself? Depending on how you put your "views" together, that may be causing your problem.
But if you think back to the paper days, you made a copy (paper) and continued to modify the originals until you got to final record drawings at which point you took all the clouds off and made one final copy and that was the end.

[sharla]

We do what David has mentioned. We archive the project files at the end of each phase, but we also create PDF's and/or DWF's when we send something to plot.

I'm not sure about the errors...we never bind x'refs.

[Chuckyd67]

I agree with David and Sharla, although I never use PDF, unless the client requires it. Using DWFs is much more effective because it significantly reduces file sizes, while it still allows measuring, extraction of data, and such.

[david_peterson]

I'd love to use DWF's, but I haven't found a client that will accept them. Also if you haven't heard, if you use Revit 2010 and have a quad core, PDF's are the worst thing you can use. Apparently revit has problems creating the sheet. Lots of data, lines and such go missing. Maybe now we'll see a big surge in DWF's.
Create DWF's also processes much faster both on the printing side and the generation side.

[Doove]

I believe I mentioned this in your other post.
My question, why save the .dwg? Anyone can edit it easily no matter what you do to it. If you create a pdf of the sheet, save the pdf. That's your end of the day copy. If you issued the revision and need to modify the revision you've already done, you need to revise the sheet and re-issue it anyway (ie produce a new pdf)
Until you produce record drawings, those are working documents
Also, maybe I'm just dumb today, but what the heck do you mean by "AMEP CTD"?
If you are getting runtime errors, make sure you have all the service packs for both AMEP and whatever OS you are using.
Also, are you using PN or just x-reffing them yourself? Depending on how you put your "views" together, that may be causing your problem.
But if you think back to the paper days, you made a copy (paper) and continued to modify the originals until you got to final record drawings at which point you took all the clouds off and made one final copy and that was the end.

Thanks to everyone for responding. I did post this twice kind of by mistake, as the other post you mention is actually someone else's regarding xrefs / blocks. I have read the comments posted there (thankyou all) but will respond here as the other post is now concentrating on the PDF-DWF debate. (DWF for me, but as has been pointed out many clients like their PDF comfort zone - though I have seen serious commentry regarding problems with accessing Design Review through Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser which would seriously damage DWFs usefulness to those organisations using web-based collaboration tools (like ourselves)).

(CTD = Crash To Desktop, sorry I get used to games forums!)

I hear what you're saying with drawing revs. I've never worked with a company using a vertical product as it was meant to be used, and my present company doesn't yet either though we all have MEP installed. We are still drawing in 2D so our standard project folder setups are all geared around single non-xreffed dwg files. I really want to move on to using MEP though the Project Navigator and am using this project as a trial to try and demonstrate to management that it is the way to go (with permission of the CAD manager & Project Manager).

Basically you produce 2D pdfs (or referably dwfs) as your issued revisions. I can't seem to find anything wrong with that at all but I bet you a pound to a pinch that management will frown upon the idea.

There is also the problem of sending dwgs to suppliers. I could really do with getting export to Acad 2004 to work.

The project IS set up via PN. The essentials course I did taught me to add annotation etc to the view drawing. I may have made mistakes here.

I have two view drawings; a total 3D model with a 3D named view setup.

I also have a "Sturctural" view with both plan AND elevations in the same dwg.

I set up the sheet and pulled the plan, elevations and 3d view from the respective view dwgs into the sheet. So I have nested xrefs.

I have a meeting with CAD management tomorrow, I will try and convince them they don't need to keep a dwg of every revision. They probably won't like the idea as frequently old ideas that occurred in an early revision get reinstated in later revs.

I really can't think of any reason why we shouldn't be doing as you all suggest... nope none at all. The question is will they agree...?

I'll let you all know!

So in reality, I'm the only one getting these problems with binding xrefs? (exporting a sheet to Acad 2004?)

Thanks again!

Cheers
Doove

[david_peterson]

I don't have AMEP so I can't speak to the crashing issue.
I'm also not sure exactly how you set up your constructs (parts and pieces - the more the merrier)
As for convincing the IT guys why to just keep the paper copies.
First off, think of server space. When your files sizes start to creep into 4-5-9MB per file X 30 or so files X number of revisions.......equals a lot of server space. Once you get up to where my firm is at (we have a 6 terabyte project server that is currently 90% full) you start to run out of time to back up the server (ie it takes longer than 8hrs to run). So now we are think about splitting the server again and adding an additional tape back up system beyond the data slave drive that backs up in real time.
If you have revisions that you may want to go back to split that file out to a different division. This will keep it out of the main file. Paul's book also talks about this. You can kinda use divisions for design options. Just a thought.
On building your files. Keep it stupid simple. One disciple per sheet area per file. This will help greatly with work flow as it will bog down if you get into anything over say 30-40ksf buildings. Or even small building with intensive MEP systems. I've seen file size over 40MB before. Not common but it happens.
As for crashing, I'm not sure why that's happening. I'm wondering about computer specs (I'm guessing you're running with enough horsepower to do it) Make sure you have all service packs for both AMEP & the OS system. Make sure you have adesk certified hardware (mainly just the video card, you can check this via the options dialong box)
Oh, I just thought of yet another advantage for dwf or pdf. When you name the file you can simply add the rev number to the file name. You can keep them all in one location and you'll have a construction style stick set. Or you can keep a copy of each revision in a "revision" folder and then you can create a "current" set by replacing the old sheets. The nice part here is your guy in the field can then just copy over that "combined - current" folder to his laptop before he goes out the field and he/she won't have to carry drawings around.
Again, if they want to keep a copy, burn the folder to a CD or DVD. We keep completed projects on an Archive server on site. That server stores projects that are less than 7yrs old. After that they go DVD. We still have the tape if need be, but we've never needed to go there. DVD's have a shelf life of something like 10-15 yrs easily. After 15 yrs, the file may not even be compatible with your current software. So I'd just skip that process of saving each revision back to server, I'd put on a disk. You may want to keep the milestones on a server until project closeout. But once you get to project close out, the only thing you should keep from the drawings is the final as built condition. Everything else is junk. Ask you firms litigation council about it. Our guy told us not to keep anything. Turn over the paper copies and or dwgs at the end of the job and leave it at that. I don't agree with him, but as he points out, it really hard to get sued for something if the something no longer exists. (think that one e-mail you kept telling you about grounding requirements or something like that)
Wow, I think this might be my longest post on record.