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Thread: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

  1. #1
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    Default Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    Hey,

    So I’ve been thinking about this mad rush to BIM programs like Revit and others and all I really need to make AutoCAD work flow better is just a great way to produce all the kinds of schedules that are typical for residential design: Door/window, Elect /Plumb Fixture, Room finishes, and perhaps Area calcs. It would be awesome to generate some basic material takeoffs using areas of walls and roofs tagged with descriptions [attributes], but that might be getting too close to BIM and all the challenges that come with learning that approach to design.

    Sure, we can all do these things manually but is anyone aware of an add-on or lisp routine or some other functioning tool which can create, automate and keep updated Schedules via block w/ attributes which are linked to the schedule? I've not explored the excel linkage with AutoCAD, but perhaps that’s the intended purpose??

    Anyone?

    Thanks, daniel
    Last edited by daniel.191403; 2009-08-08 at 01:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    Welcome to AUGI & congrats on your 1st post.

    You mean like Data Extraction? Basically you place some hidden attributes in your room, door & window tags ... so you can place the relevant data directly on the plan. Then you create a table using Data Extraction ... which can be updated with one or two clicks.

    The problem here is how do you handle revisions.

    As for Areas, using Vanilla ACad you'll have to create the boundary polyline (or some such) then you can add a field into (say) a hidden attrib of the room tag. This way the field's value changes after a regen if the polyline was stretched or otherwise modified.

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    Thanks for the reply....yeah, basically this kind of functionality is there, but not very user friendly....and it can be made to be automated just like in Revit or ACA. Wouldn't that be great? All you do is take a door or window or any other kind of TAG off your tool palate and place it in the drawing where you need it and then automatically [just like placing a window or door in Revit] a schedule gets generated!!! And as you add tags to the drawing it numbers them correctly....Wow, how cool and easy would that be, or if Tags are removed the numbers all get updated accordingly!! When you place the Tag you can immediately enter all the data you want in an attribute dialogue box or choose to do so later or even have a library of such Tags which are commonly used and so preloaded with all the Data just like you would with your regular block library.....

    But this functionality all takes place directly in AutoCAD...no need for excel extraction. And it tracks the drawings linked to it to keep it current as changes are made. AND can be bi-directional so you can edit the data in either the tag attribute editor or directly in the Schedule....super cool, right?

    Vectorworks does this quite well with what they call Worksheets which is essentially an excel functionality within the program for all the kinds of scheduling tasks we do, both 2D & 3D. It works for landscape plans by simply tagging the plants and sending the info off to a schedule [Worksheet] which tracks all the desired data -- quantities, types, cost, notes, sources, specs, etc...

    This would make our lives soooo much easier!! You should tell everone about this idea as I'm sure there would be a universal thumbs up...and something that would easily make the Top 10 on the user wish list.
    Last edited by daniel.191403; 2009-07-22 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    It's available in ACA ... the new versions of Architectural Desktop. And there isn't really a reason for buying Vanilla ACad over AutoCad Architecture ... pricing is very similar.

    But even with Vanilla, if you setup a table using Data Extraction, the table does update automatically. There's a new statusbar icon, with a pop-up, like xref's to show you that something's changed. Then one (or two) clicks updates the table adding any new tags, removing deleted tags, and updating text as per attribute values (or Dynamic parameters, or whatever properties you asked for). It is a bit difficult to setup, but once it's done, you don't need to do it again.

    Bi-directional is a bit of a problem though ...

    The ACA system works a lot like Revit's scheduling. In some ways even better, e.g. with door tags, the tag is automatically linked to the room number into which the door swings (this can be overridden by user door-by-door). In Revit it depends where you place the tag, so if the view is congested you may have a room name other than expected in your door compilation sheet.

    Previously I did this using MS Office Access, linked to Acad 2005 using VBA coding. Was bi-directional but slow as hell!

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    Yes, but ACA is a different beast then AutoCAD. You shouldn't have to commit to ACA or Revit in order to have this built in functionality. I've had ACA since it was ADT and I don't like using the program for a whole host of reasons.

    AutoCAD, vanilla or not as it is so called, is a powerful program with virtues that make is extremely relevant for users who do not buy into the BIM or quasi BIM ACA due to all the short comings of using those options.

    I understand the functionality I'm promoting is available to a degree in AutoCAD. Still, I am wanting it to be more fully realized, streamed lined, user friendly and be an integrated "on the tool bar" feature. There is no technical reason that I can fathom why this has not been done already. It can even be integrated into the Sheet Set functionality to organize drawing data over a set of sheets. Brilliant!!

    In other words take all the limitations you yourself have noted and fix them...i.e. "it’s a bit difficult to set up," "Bi directionality is an issue", "slow as hell" with the VBA coding, ect.....and more that i can name!!

    I don't want to have to create my own VBA code, or lisp routine, or set my tables to work for extraction to another program like excel....etc....when it can work so beautiful right in AutoCAD. Its just the logical prorgession of pulling these disperate tools into a unified whole for everyday work.

    Are you suggesting this would be something you would not use if it was in your AutoCAD tool palate? Let’s make AC Vanilla....Cookies & Cream!!!

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    I'll be honest ... I also don't like ACA much, it just simply falls appart with the size projects we're usually doing. For scheduling, I'd like to use Revit instead. But with straight forward (as you say "not named") Vanilla ACad (as most of the projects here is done in this) ... the standard Data Extraction just has too many limitations. It's a bit unwieldy. It has improved in functionality since the older Attribute Extract of 2006, but IMHO the user interface has actually been a whole lot of steps backward.

    What I did to make ACad work reasonably well, is create a bunch of lisps to link room tags, door tags & window tags together. The lisps "link" specifically named attributes from the room tag to the others using fields. Then I created a import & export lisp to save & read CSV files (one for each tag named as per the drawing). Then in Excel I use the data import utility to create an ODBC link to these and format it in an Excel table ... you just have so much more options in Excel and it works a lot faster and easier than Data Extract. Then if the schedule needs to be on a title sheet I copy the excel into ACad as a linked table.

    It's still not perfect, as bi-directionality only works with the CSV (unformated) files . But my lisps are still a work in progress, as they're very involved & specific to block & attribute names. I was thinking of creating a setup interface for these, but (you know how it is) I just don't have the time ... it all "has to work right now!" Another thing I'd like to implement is to remove the intermediate CSV step and import / export directly to the XLS file ... but again that's going to be a few weeks worth of work, and it's going to make the setup a whole lot more complex.

    That's why I've been asking why ADesk doesn't simply produce an ODBC driver which reads blocks in DWG files as if they're tables in a database. That way you could use Excel (or whatever other program you want) to link directly to the drawing, format your data as you'd like and go from there. IMHO this would be the simplest solution for ADesk ... it would be much less of a program change than redesigning Data Extract to provide all these features & bi-directionality, while making the user interface simpler. Most spreadsheet and database client apps have those things done to a tee (as they've been at it for decades already), so ADesk don't need to reinvent the wheel. If this driver can then also write to the DWG you've got your bi-directionality sorted, as any database client (Access, FoxPro, Open Office Base, ect.) can directly edit tables, or you could design an entry / edit form.

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    Honesty is all that I can ask!!

    You've made my point very well. Not with standing all the hard work you've done to create a method which is working reasonably well for you....the solution is not to improve the ODBC driver [what ever that is....which is partly my point, I don't wanna have to know what that is...I just want to be a designer not programmer or computer technician], the solution is to have in AC exactly what they have done in Revit....put it all together and make it eeeeaaaassssiiiiieeerrrr for us to focus on design.

    You can help promote this if you wish. Notice where your first response started and how you got to where you are now in your last response....this is part of the problem, we have gotten so use to having to be master technicians with the software that we forget how hard we are working to achieve our goals with it and accept our fate of having to learn such skills....in fact these skills sometimes is a source of well deserved pride....but we shouldn't have to even go down the road if it is not necessary. Right now it shouldn't be necessary any longer given the state of the software and similar functions being provided in Revit and ACA.

    All the underlying tools are already in AC they are just not optimized and formulized like they are in Revit. Sure with Revit it works differently due to the BIM paradigm.

    With AC the only real adjustment would be that the intelligence is in the TAG not the line work, but its still DATA driven. You must admit this would be fantastic. No?

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    Default Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    My 1st post was to show you it is possible to get something from Vanilla CAD (as you've stated you don't want a full fledged BIM-like product), it's not the easiest way, but it does work to an extent. It's not perfect, since you don't have the flexibility & ease of use as you do in Revit. ADesk, probably thinks "If they want this they should just buy Revit instead ... that's where we implemented it." The problem with Vanilla ACad is that it caters for the basics of a broad range of disiplines, so what might work well for architectural scheduling may be totally incorrect for Civils or Structural or .... or ....

    That's why there's vertical products like ACA, C3D, etc. And of course Revit Arch, Struct & MEP.

    As to the ODBC stuff, there is no such thing "yet". ODBC stands for Open Database Conectivity. It's an old standard (mid 90's) method of connecting to a data source from any other program. Nearly all programs can at least link to this (even ACad can). The driver is to be able to read / write the data in the source itself. What I'm promoting is that ADesk creates one of these and leave the user interface to another program of the user's choice. That way they don't have to fiddle with how to setup the link & how to create the final table - that will be handled in the other program. With something like this the guy working on the data don't even need to have ACad (only the driver), so someone like a QS can easily read quantities out of a DWG file.

    I've gone through the programming side, since I have "some" experience in this, and since our org only has Vanilla / Revit ... i.e. I was forced into it.

    As for the TAG becoming the data, yes that's exactly what Data Extract does. It does bring the tag values out in a table structure (either in ACad or in Excel). You can get the data from it, the prob is the user interface & the difficulty of formatting it exactly as you want. To link two tags together (e.g. a room name in a door tag) you either do it manually , or using fields (which is what my code is automating) ... Vanilla ACad doesn't have such a thing. But once you've finally got it setup as you want it (if that's possible), it shouldn't need a whole new setup if there's changes to the data. At worst you'll have to modify an existing setup to include another DWG file, at best you'll simply click the pop-up stating that it needs to be updated.

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    Smile Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    My friend Imeb -- Let me summarize this conversation:

    1] We both have noted that "it is possible" to do these things; sort of do them at least, already. If you recall I wrote in my fist post that 'we can do this manually...'. So we both agree whole heartly on this!! Whew....nice; now we can take that off the table. lol

    2] We both understand the idea is not suggesting creating a brand new function, but best seen as a way to improve ACs currently very cumbersome and complicated functionality. After all that is a major intention Autodesk itself uses to improve each release: Ease of use for the benefit of its users.

    3] We both know that Autodesk makes many tools for many industries. Each tool they make must stand on its own to be a viable professional tool and have a presence in a competitive market and perform for the professions they were designed to support despite the notion of verticality. Though many have common features and functionality each is an island occupied by a breed of folks who feel more comfortable on their chosen island for a whole host of reasons: Industry specific tools, varied working methodologies, deep investments in their tool of choice, learning curve issues....just to name a few.

    We can look at it like this: Just because you have coconuts on your island and I don't shouldn't require me to swim to your island to get a taste of coconut juice, especially since coconut milk has lots of benefical & healthy stuff in it which we both can use; and I have bananas and figs and pineapples which I totally enjoy, so I don't want to abondon my island. So, just toss of few of your coconuts into the water and let them drift over to me….no big deal. Okay, i'm being silly and so let’s not parse through this tropical analogy....as the point is that AC & BIM [ACA or Revit] are very different worlds serving similar and overlapping purposes....which is designing....but require doing that in very very very different ways. Its not apples to apples.....oops, back to my fruits again. But they can borrow from each other, and clearly already have and do and will continue to do so as users make intelligent requests…hint hint.

    4] It would be perfectly okay for any user to continue using AC just as they have to pull all of the strings to get it to do kinda what we are discussing in this idea, just as you have. I think you are brilliant to have worked through all that tedium and as you've stated 'challenging set up' to pull it all together. Bravo!! But I would be shocked to discover that if this idea was implemented in upcoming versions of AC that you would avoid using it to keep you current method, especially if all that you currently do and more could be achieved in a much easier way. Why would you not use it? How could you not use it? Think of the children you would be saving...hehehehe

    5] I don't want to have to go through the "programming side" as you have said or be “forced” into it as you say....many people don't. Most people don’t. Actually can’t off the top of my head think of anyone who would….well, there is this one guy, Scott a friend of mine who is a total computer wiz nerd who probably would salivate at the opportunity….but I’m getting side tracked…..Some people enjoy that kind of thing and deserve applause for those skills. And with this idea implemented they still could work that way, because part of the beauty of the idea is that it isn't inventing any new hard wired functionality....it is pulling together all that is kinda sort a there already and making it much much much better.

    Think about the arrival of the xRef Manager, Sheet Set Manager, Layer Manager, Dynamic Blocks, Annotative Dims and Text, etc…. all these advancements sat on already existing functionality but were developed to make them better and easier to use and more powerful for the sole purpose of improving the productivity for the user. And of course make the software more marketable.

    Common now, jump on board….or don’t as you wish, but given your “in all honesty” comments I think you would. ;_)

    BTW, do you work for AUGI or Autodesk?? Just curious about your inside knowledge about how they make decisions.
    Last edited by daniel.191403; 2009-07-24 at 04:50 PM.

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    Talking Re: Creating Schedules in AutoCad

    I’ve been thinking a bit more about this notion of Verticality. And ya know what….an objective assessment of how it’s being used by Autodesk leads one to view the terminology mostly as a red herring. I mean if you really look at it honestly, really dig down into the meaning of the word and how its used in this context…you will see that Autodesk uses the word as a marketing description rather then a true reflection of something rising to the vertex of quality. The vertex meaning the pinnacle, the upper most valued, the highest achievement, the greatest in the herd.

    This is very much an open debate as to whether or not Autodesk’s point of view about their pinnacle achievements to date are in fact all that to a wide swath of users.

    The only place within the Autodesk fold where using the notion of verticality in a true and responsible way, meaning frank and earnest, is between AutoCAD LT and AutoCAD. There it is clear that with all the 3D modeling tools in the bigger brother that the plane of the playing field has indeed ascended; as nothing was taken away when moving from LT to AC, but only additional enhancements are provided.

    Revit is not a vertical tool in relationship to AutoCAD. It’s a different beast all together. ACA is kinda of sort of vertical, but this is because AC sits inside of it while the skin of the program is actually a new paradigm which requires a very different approach to the work. Is this better, a higher vertex? Well, to each there own. Market share may reveal something about this, however.

    Revit and ACA started as experiments which took 3D CAD in an entirely new direction…and into a brave new world. It’s really a matter of opinion if this new direction is vertical or more of a side winder trying to find a path into the upper reaches of acceptability.

    So just because Autodesk’s says there is a vertical hierarchy in their offerings doesn’t mean you have to believe this is true….its called marketing and it a strategy of promoting a notion of value added tools as you move “up” in the Autodesk lexicon.

    When a tool is a radical shift from it predecessors, like Revit is from AutoCAD, and it places demands on you to work in ways that has some benefits and some liabilities then it is up to the customer to determine if this is a vertical improvement of functionality….a price difference between the two may to a casual observer convince them they just gotta have the best….but given the fact that these are not toys for pleasure or adornment but essential tools for working and providing for our families and livelihood….well a deeper and more responsible assessment should be undertaken when selecting which tool to commit your livelihood to.

    Don't get me wrong....they all are pretty solid offerings....depending on the user's fortitude and needs!! I think folks are mistaken to relegate AC to the darling little brother category, however, just because they prefer one of the other siblings.

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