Revit 2010 or Rhino for complex massing?

[sarah.auffet]

I'm usually of the opinion that if I can do it all in Revit, even with a little more headache, that would be preferable since it is my final documentation program anyway. In recent projects prior to 2010, the Rhino models we've imported are not very useful since they are simply polymeshes and not editable.

Now, we're starting on a new project that we would typically resolve to model in Rhino as well but are wondering if Revit is now capable of handling the complex curves and modelling required. I'm attaching an image of the past project we've been working on using Rhino and AutoCAD with some Revit here and there to generate sections. Do you think Revit is now powerful enough to model and document a building like this? Keep in mind that no walls are truly vertical, no planes are flat, there is an inconsistent change in slopes throughout.....

What would you use?

[AP23]

If your staff uses Rhino frequently, then it might feel a step backward modeling from scratch in Revit, regardless of the new modeling tools in Revit. Since it's the first release, there are still many limitations. Check out the AU class on this topic. http://au.autodesk.com/?nd=class&session_id=5068

That said, I would always use Rhino for the very early conceptual masses, just to be able to knock out 20 designs in 30 minutes. Especially if you have a plug in like T-splines where you can do some sub-division surface modeling. When you start rationalizing the mass, and the staff is well trained in Revit, then I would consider Revit. The moment to recreate the model in Revit depends on the complexity of the model Timing is crucial in this stage. Sometimes its also necessary to continue the Rhino model until fabrication, while having a Revit model concurrently.

I'll give some explanation on this process later on. For now, here is a rhino-revit workflow chart from Shop Architects.

[twiceroadsfool]

Im not the biggest fanboy of the 2010 Massing implementation, but hacing said that i would still do the project you showed above in Native Revit.

Its a somewhat complex shape, but its not an insane amount modifier-esque iterations in so much as that it cannot be accomplished in Revit. Actually, looking at it quickly i think you could build that quite easily with the new massing tools.

Having said that, theyre not insanely intuitive, so you have to be used to them. The first time we went to use them on a project, we spent two hours trying to do something. Once we realized the ins and outs of the Form editor, we redid the entire thing in (literally) three minutes. Its like anything else, knowing what you can and cant do helps. But that building you showed could be massed out in a form in short order.

[sarah.auffet]

Our office has one expert Revit user (myself), but I haven't gotten into the new mass modeling all that much. I've done a few tutorials, and I know where I can find help to learn it quickly.

We're actually much more limited in our Rhino expertise. We would have to learn that program and probably also enlist the help of some students from the local university to model much of it. I think that cost-wise, staying with Revit would be best all around.

Since I haven't delved into the massing tools just yet, I wanted to get some feedback from those who have. So, if you're saying it's possible to model a building such as the one I posted with the new massing tools, then I think that staying with Revit is best.

Using Rhino for the very initial conceptual massing may still make sense for us, though. Getting to the place where one is comfortable conceptually massing in Rhino takes about how long for someone who has never used it before but has a good grasp on 3D modelling? Is it worth my time to learn Rhino for this use?

[twiceroadsfool]

Youre going to get varying opinions depending on who you ask. People- just like with politics- have a myriad of beliefs ranging from "i use an arsenal of tools, and i end up in revit later, but not always at the beginning," to "i do it all in revit and thats that."

A lot of things factor in to it.

If youre brand new to Rhino, and brand new to Revit Form Editing, i *personally* wouldnt bother with Rhino. But a lot of other people would.

[sarah.auffet]

ok thanks for all of the feedback!

there's rhino course in about a month that i'm going to take, an intro class, just to see if it's worth it.... i'm guessing that i'll be staying with revit solely, though.

[AP23]

Getting to the place where one is comfortable conceptually massing in Rhino takes about how long for someone who has never used it before but has a good grasp on 3D modelling? Is it worth my time to learn Rhino for this use?

Ok...this makes the situation a little bit different. If you or the staff is an expert in Rhino, then Revit is a horrible for 3d modeling, unless the Rhino modelers do their drafing in Autocad too. However, in your case, you might as well learn Revit since you don't have much experience in Rhino.

The main difference between Rhino (and all other generic modelers) and Revit is that you need to somehow have a notion of what you model will be in Revit. In Rhino, Maya 3ds max, SketchUp, you can start off with a cube, plane or sphere and through pulling and pushing the vertices, faces and edges and using tons of modifiers, you can quickly create a desired shape. So generally, the few firms that do use Revit for those types of projects, start off in a generic modeling tool just to quickly transfer an idea instantaneously from your brain to the model. If the complex is very complex they might skip revit and use Autocad or import a more detail static model in Revit. With the new modeling tools you can also tranfsfer the oulines of the model into Revit and recreate the model. Some even use physical models exclusively and then create the model in Revit.

The model you've shown could be done in Revit, but you will need to know forehand what the shape is going to be. And for some people that might be the problem. You can compare the initial design process with sketching. Normally you would start off sketching your design on a paper. You can also do that in Autocad, but as you know, Autocad is slower and you need to know what you going to draft. Well the same thing applies with Rhino and Revit. Rhino is like a paper and pen and Revit is Autocad.

Assuming that the modeling tools and API will improve in the coming releases, it's definitely worth learning the massing tools in Revit. But for now, my rule of thumb in using revit for "blob-architecture" is: if the building is like the Guggenheim in Bilbao, you can do it Revit. If it's an Abu Dhabi Performing Arts Centre or a theater interior like the red image, you stay far away from Revit.

BTW, here are some blogs on massing to get started.
http://designreform.net/
http://www.buildz.blogspot.com/

[nmiller.220753]

Here is a project NBBJ is using both Rhino and Revit on... Rhino/Grasshopper for complex form/structure creation... Revit for team coordination + documentation.

The complex structural shape was modular, so I was able to be pretty creative with my use of families to transfer the Rhino model into the Revit environment.

http://nmillerarch.blogspot.com/2009...design-of.html

This post is more about Grasshopper... may do a Revit-related post soon.

We just broke ground on Dec 26!

[AP23]

Here is a project NBBJ is using both Rhino and Revit on... Rhino/Grasshopper for complex form/structure creation... Revit for team coordination + documentation.

The complex structural shape was modular, so I was able to be pretty creative with my use of families to transfer the Rhino model into the Revit environment.

http://nmillerarch.blogspot.com/2009...design-of.html

This post is more about Grasshopper... may do a Revit-related post soon.

We just broke ground on Dec 26!

So, you guys use Rhino+grasshopper for competition, SD, DD right? And is Revit a kind of replacement for Autocad with a traditional drafting department that uses Revit?

Did you import the Rhino structural complex shape in a Revit family or did you recreate the shapes in Revit?

[twiceroadsfool]

Andrew- i must say that i disagree. With the traditional modeling tools (the fab 5 that we had in 2009) you would have to have an *idea* of what you were making, since its basically the iterative process weve come to know and love in Revit Family building.... But with the Form Editing tools (while theyre still a little kludgy), you can certainly draw a block of whatever, and start to push, pull, divide, destroy, whatever.

Not meant as a flame, but you can certainly use the new massing tools for that sort of exercise. And to reiterate, i am NOT the biggest fan of the new Form tool, so im certainly not advocating out of blind faith.

FWIW i still want the fab 5 in massing, AND the form editor.