Curtain Wall Sealant Gap @ Jamb/Sills

[t1.shep]

I am also trying to find the right balance between efficiency, usability, accuracy, etc. in regards to modeling and detailing curtain wall/storefronts. In my ideal world the curtain wall would cut the wall including the shim space/R.O. so that detailing would be quicker (less linework, cut profile editing, masking regions, adding detail components). This assumes that the mullion Detail Component is included in the mullion (like Kawneer's). However, I want the curtain wall to dimension to the mullion dimension and not the rough opening dimension. As others have said, when you make the mullion cut the wall including the rough opening, there is not a way (that I can find) to dimension to the actual mullion, it includes the entire R.O. Putting additional ref. planes in the mullion profile does not do anything.
As you can see in the attached image, I want to be able to dimension to the 2'-0" mullion to mullion dimension, but I want the CW to cut the wall down to the R.O. as other elements in the project will relate to the R.O. In the attached file I added a filled region to the Detail component that is nested into the mullion profile so it looks correct at the mullion, but you can see it doesn't cut the entire wall.
I don't want to have to add a calculated value to report the curtain wall dimensions to exclude the R.O. as that might change depending on the detail.
We also elevate our individual CW and so the model would need to look correct in elevation in that we only need to dimension the Mullion/frame outline and not the R.O. lines.
So, essentially, I need the model to look correct (cuts R.O.) but I need to only dimension to the edges of the mullions. Sounds much more simple when I put it that way.

[jamesgchambers]

This may be an "over-modelling" approach, but it's how we're doing it on our projects...

Since we need to dimension the MO/RO in overall drawings and then produce separate elevations of each curtainwall, we'll actually add a curtain grid just inside the outside of our curtainwall and replace the panels around the edge w/ a system panel type called "soft joint." it sounds like a lot of work, but it's all upfront work and future modifications are pretty simple and require much less clean up work. Then we set up our curtain wall elevations to exclude the "soft joint" panel type via filter.

We had tried the edge mullion approach before, but folks weren't satisfied with how the mullions didn't clean up (the verticals would project beyond the base of the horizontals), and therefore were having staff clean up the intersections with detailing.

Hate to say it, but it seems a simple add for the factory - shim space parameters for left, right, horizontal, and vertical edges. Granted it gets hairy when dealing with non-rectangular curtainwalls.

[Dave Jones]

This may be an "over-modelling" approach, but it's how we're doing it on our projects...

Since we need to dimension the MO/RO in overall drawings and then produce separate elevations of each curtainwall, we'll actually add a curtain grid just inside the outside of our curtainwall and replace the panels around the edge w/ a system panel type called "soft joint." it sounds like a lot of work, but it's all upfront work and future modifications are pretty simple and require much less clean up work. Then we set up our curtain wall elevations to exclude the "soft joint" panel type via filter.

We had tried the edge mullion approach before, but folks weren't satisfied with how the mullions didn't clean up (the verticals would project beyond the base of the horizontals), and therefore were having staff clean up the intersections with detailing.

Hate to say it, but it seems a simple add for the factory - shim space parameters for left, right, horizontal, and vertical edges. Granted it gets hairy when dealing with non-rectangular curtainwalls.

from my perspective as a specialty curtain wall detailer it doesn't matter if the project docs account for the caulking joint gap or not. What's important to me is that the documents indicate where the dimensions on plans, sections, elevations, or frame schedules are to and from. On almost every project I do this is my first RFI question because rarely is this information on the docs. Trying to figure out what a dimension extension line is relating to on a 1/4" = 1-0" frame elevation is no fun...(see t1-shep's 2'-0" dim above for instance)

and, as an aside, a caulking joint is not an aesthetic feature whose size (width) can be dictated by what you want to see. The width is determined by the design criteria of the building (story drift, LL and DL deflections, etc). I can't begin to count the number of "fights" that I've had with Architects over the years because they wanted to "see" a 3/8" joint when a 3/4" joint was required. OMG, you'd think I was pulling their arm out of the socket or something

[t1.shep]

from my perspective as a specialty curtain wall detailer it doesn't matter if the project docs account for the caulking joint gap or not. What's important to me is that the documents indicate where the dimensions on plans, sections, elevations, or frame schedules are to and from. On almost every project I do this is my first RFI question because rarely is this information on the docs. Trying to figure out what a dimension extension line is relating to on a 1/4" = 1-0" frame elevation is no fun...(see t1-shep's 2'-0" dim above for instance)

and, as an aside, a caulking joint is not an aesthetic feature whose size (width) can be dictated by what you want to see. The width is determined by the design criteria of the building (story drift, LL and DL deflections, etc). I can't begin to count the number of "fights" that I've had with Architects over the years because they wanted to "see" a 3/8" joint when a 3/4" joint was required. OMG, you'd think I was pulling their arm out of the socket or something

This is what I'm trying to get at...we only want to dimension the mullion to mullion dimensions, knowing that the R.O. and such will not be typically defined by us. But in the case of Kawneer's details you can see that their sill mullion has additional pieces and such to create the sill mullion. However, in their typical details they show that they dimension to the mullion as if it didn't have the extra stuff on it. So, i.e. a 2" mullion is what you are typically dimensioning to and the shim/caulking, and additional extrusions are the responsibility of the contractor and mfgr. The trouble with Revit is that to get all your views showing correctly and without doing a ton of extra detailing, linework, filled regions, etc. you need to account for the true R.O. size. However, this has impacts on how the elevations look (you now have "extra" lines on the elevation as you pickup the R.O. line and the Mullion line) or you have an elevation that looks as if the mullions are larger than they are because you need to include the shim space to get the sections and details to look correct.
Like someone previously mentioned, it'd be nice to have a R.O. offset so that your CW or window, or door, cuts the wall slightly more than the actual geometry. This can be done with windows and doors, but not so easily with CW.

[Dave Jones]

Like someone previously mentioned, it'd be nice to have a R.O. offset so that your CW or window, or door, cuts the wall slightly more than the actual geometry. This can be done with windows and doors, but not so easily with CW.

Revit curtain walls are an unruly beast that need a lot of work IMO. Hopefully in the future they can more closely be created with some semblance of reality. Like scheduleable corners and the ability to have curtain panels (glass lites) span vertical mullion splice locations...

[jkendall.200868]

As a curtainwall guy, I've seen the caulk joint become an issue many times. One of the common ones is when the caulk joint is not accounted for around a door with no sidelites. For example, you've got a standard 3'-0" wide door opening (which is usually minimum to meet ADA) with a 2" storefront frame on either side. If you don't account for the caulk joint, the rough opening will be made 3'-4". If you need 1/2" caulk joint on each side then your frame dimension becomes 3'-3" and your door opening becomes 2'-11" which may or may not meet ADA requirements, not to mention it makes one more unique door size on the project. Easy to fix in the design stage, not so easy to fix when the pre-cast panel guys have already made their surrounding panels.

It's a similar issue when sub-framing is not accounted for with a door in curtainwall. It's sometimes possible to do doors in CW without subframes, but it limits your door hardware choices. Not a big deal if there are sidelites to adjust.

I don't care if you dimension to RO or mullion frame dimension as long as you tell me which it is and what caulk joint you are assuming. I'd prefer RO with references to center or top of intermediate mullions so I can determine caulk joint requirements on my own and not have to "please verify" note to death on the shops when my DLO dimensions don't match up exactly with the architectural CW elevation sheet.

[mike.koutsoulias]

This post is probably too late but it could be useful for those of you that would like to generate accurate working drawing mullions sealant gap and all.
The easiest way to include the gap is to add the extra width to your perimeter mullions. Combined with a detail component and a profile using invisible lines in the mullion family it makes for a convincing detail in section and provides an actual modelled edge to dimension both the rough opening and the frame. See the attached pdf for an illustrated explanation.

[Dave Jones]

This post is probably too late but it could be useful for those of you that would like to generate accurate working drawing mullions sealant gap and all.
The easiest way to include the gap is to add the extra width to your perimeter mullions. Combined with a detail component and a profile using invisible lines in the mullion family it makes for a convincing detail in section and provides an actual modelled edge to dimension both the rough opening and the frame. See the attached pdf for an illustrated explanation.

all it needs is a parameter to flex the width of the caulking gap and you're there

[twiceroadsfool]

all it needs is a parameter to flex the width of the caulking gap and you're there

Thats what ours has, replete with a masing region so it can get detailed as necessary to conform with the adjacent consutrction. Plus, the profile "bumps" out slightly at the masing region, giving it the correct linework in elevation and detail.

[Dave Jones]

Thats what ours has, replete with a masing region so it can get detailed as necessary to conform with the adjacent consutrction. Plus, the profile "bumps" out slightly at the masing region, giving it the correct linework in elevation and detail.

I'm thinking of putting flip controls on my profiles to eliminate the lefts and rights, and tops and bottoms. I think that I could get this down to 3 profiles for each system. Panel 1 side for the perimeter, panel two sides for the intermediate, and panel no sides for specialty stuff like door jambs at walls. Think I'll work on that in my spare time