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Thread: Door family with nested frames

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    Default Door family with nested frames

    Someone please tell me this is possible...
    Revit comes with some standard HM door frame details...
    Revit does not have a HM door frame profile...
    I want to create a HM door family where I can nest in different door panels, and also control the HM frame size based on my wall type.
    I want to use the frame details that Revit comes with since they're already drawn and usable.

    What I've found so far...
    I tried to create a HM frame profile, but you can't copy the ref. planes, parameters, or lines from the frame detail family to the profile. You can, however, nest the detail into the profile. If you draw lines in the frame detail first (since it is only a filled region by default), you can then create your profile by picking and locking lines. In the profile family you then need to duplicate the types from the frame detail. If you apply a Family/Type parameter to the detail you can then control the profile family.
    So yeah for me...a lot of work that didn't work. When that profile is loaded into a door family to create the jamb and head, you can't control the profile for the sweep using another Family/type parameter. So, again, you'd have to use a bunch of Yes/No parameters.
    So round 2, I said, forget the profile, just load in the frame detail and create my profile by sketch and lock my sketch lines to the frame detail. Since it is a detail component and not a profile, I can assign a Family/type parameter to it and my sweep profile stays aligned to the detail as it flexes.
    Now I can control the door types and frame types through the Family/type pull-down and avoid a long list of Yes/No check boxes.
    At least I think that's what I'll be able to do...I haven't finished the family yet.

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    Certifiable AUGI Addict twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    I would just make the detail family flexible, instead of using a "family type" parameter. Then constrain the parameters to the same parameters in your Door Family, and use family types (in the door family) to control it that way.

    Then again, we keep our Head and Jamb details out of our doors, by and large.

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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    Quote Originally Posted by twiceroadsfool View Post
    I would just make the detail family flexible, instead of using a "family type" parameter. Then constrain the parameters to the same parameters in your Door Family, and use family types (in the door family) to control it that way.

    Then again, we keep our Head and Jamb details out of our doors, by and large.
    I was hoping for a way to reduce the number of parameters and reference planes in a single family. I figured since the jamb detail was already drawn, why not just use it, that way it stays consistent between the door family and detail family if it were ever placed separately from the door, in a drafting or detail view for example.

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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    I finished my firms door families just a few weeks ago. I used a simple rectangle for the door frame extrusions. There is a length parameter that controls the jamb & header dimensions. The fame is called out as HM-1, HM-M or AL-1 with text in the schedule. But, the frame looks correct in elevations. Any detailing would need to be done with detail components (as Aaron mentioned) separate from the door family. We also an associated 'Type Catalog' with the door families controlling many of the parameters up front for 'Users'.

    The problem you're facing is that Revit families can't extract how thick a wall is. They can adjust to the depth of the wall. But, there is no way to have the family then spit that back out into a schedule for lets say throat depth. The same thing would go for having your details understand the thickness of every wall then create a detail component family type for all of those wall thicknesses.

    Sorry to be a downer,

    Jeff S.

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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    I understand what you were trying to do, but its sort of cutting off your nose to spite your face. (in a friendly way...). Youll have Family Type parameters instead of length constraint parameters, and youll need to tweak all the families to get it to work correctly anyway. And- beyond that- youre STILL going to have to draw a profile over the detail, because you dont want the detail to extrude the way the actual HM profile is. It would be major performance-bogging overkill on the model.

    There are a lot of content battles that are worth picking with the Program... But Heads and Jambs (in my very humble opinion) arent one of them.

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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    While a respect both of your opinions highly, I still really want to make this work. Ideally our office will have a door frame family unique to each frame type (hollow metal, aluminum, wood, etc.) Within that family you'll be able to adjust the frame size to meet the size of door you need as well as the wall thickness while representing the different frame types. Then, again ideally, we'll have a separate door panel family that gets nested into the door frame family and can be controlled by a family/type parameter. So if you think about scheduling a door and representing it graphically, you'll be able to have one frame type that represents all the sizes of it, and then all the panel types that fit inside the different frames (as opposed to a bunch of different door families for each frame and panel type.) That way you only need to create your panel in a separate family and load it into the door frame family and you'll be using the same panel type for all the different frame types you might have in a project. I'm thinking about consistency and simplicity here. I think it'll be much easier for people to create custom panels (for lites, recesses, 6-panel, etc.) that is separate from the whole door family and nest them in and is controlled from one drop-down vs. yes/no or multiple door family types.
    I fell like I'm very close to accomplishing this...I have a frame that will flex with the different hollow metal frame types, and was close to having different panels that nest into the frame and flex appropriately. I can't seem to get the panels to move appropriately to the different frame depths, the panels will flex to the width and height and thickness, but won't locate correctly to the different depths. And then I can't get the swing graphics to align appropriately either.
    For our office and the way we want to schedule and graphically show the frames and panels, this seems like a legitimate way to do this...one frame that can have different panels nested into it. We would then define the frame type parameter and then the different panels would have a panel type assigned to it that would be consistent regardless of the frame it was inserted into.
    Anyone care to take a crack at this family, or do something similar that they'd care to share?

    ok. It seems I can get the nested panel to move with the frames, but can't get the swing line work to align and lock with it...I re-uploaded the HM frame family.
    Oh, and I guess I should change the post title to "Door frame family with nested panel types".

    somehow I knew this would happen...2 minutes after posting I think I've got it working...?
    I just a had to change what I was aligning the swing linework with. Instead of the reference plane, I aligned to the panel family itself. Seems to be working. Now the only catch is that the door frame family won't "read" the panel family "Panel Type" parameter...But I know Revit won't let you do that right now...
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    Last edited by t1.shep; 2010-03-08 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Think I've got it??

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    Lightbulb Re: Door family with nested frames

    Quote Originally Posted by t1.shep View Post
    While a respect both of your opinions highly, I still really want to make this work. Ideally our office will have a door frame family unique to each frame type (hollow metal, aluminum, wood, etc.) Within that family you'll be able to adjust the frame size to meet the size of door you need as well as the wall thickness while representing the different frame types. Then, again ideally, we'll have a separate door panel family that gets nested into the door frame family and can be controlled by a family/type parameter. So if you think about scheduling a door and representing it graphically, you'll be able to have one frame type that represents all the sizes of it, and then all the panel types that fit inside the different frames (as opposed to a bunch of different door families for each frame and panel type.) That way you only need to create your panel in a separate family and load it into the door frame family and you'll be using the same panel type for all the different frame types you might have in a project. I'm thinking about consistency and simplicity here. I think it'll be much easier for people to create custom panels (for lites, recesses, 6-panel, etc.) that is separate from the whole door family and nest them in and is controlled from one drop-down vs. yes/no or multiple door family types.
    I fell like I'm very close to accomplishing this...I have a frame that will flex with the different hollow metal frame types, and was close to having different panels that nest into the frame and flex appropriately. I can't seem to get the panels to move appropriately to the different frame depths, the panels will flex to the width and height and thickness, but won't locate correctly to the different depths. And then I can't get the swing graphics to align appropriately either.
    For our office and the way we want to schedule and graphically show the frames and panels, this seems like a legitimate way to do this...one frame that can have different panels nested into it. We would then define the frame type parameter and then the different panels would have a panel type assigned to it that would be consistent regardless of the frame it was inserted into.
    Anyone care to take a crack at this family, or do something similar that they'd care to share?

    ok. It seems I can get the nested panel to move with the frames, but can't get the swing line work to align and lock with it...I re-uploaded the HM frame family.
    Oh, and I guess I should change the post title to "Door frame family with nested panel types".

    somehow I knew this would happen...2 minutes after posting I think I've got it working...?
    I just a had to change what I was aligning the swing linework with. Instead of the reference plane, I aligned to the panel family itself. Seems to be working. Now the only catch is that the door frame family won't "read" the panel family "Panel Type" parameter...But I know Revit won't let you do that right now...
    Sorry, my ADD was kicking in hard core reading your post. hopefully you have most of the issues with your doors figured out. Remember the parent family can not read the nested families information. For simplicity sake, I had one panel type nested into the frame family. That panel was a "Shared Family". I then had to preload my template with all of the different panel families & types. When the door frame family was loaded in (using a type catalog) it would see the different panels & types, then use the one specified by the Type Catalog. Works great, without any complaints. This also allows you to tag the doors separately & schedule the whole lot.

    I hope this helps you or someone.

    Jeff S.

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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    Do a search on this Site. Scott Womack posted a door which I think you can use as a basis to design what you want. I used it as a learning tool to create what I was looking for and I refer to it a lot as a complex example of what you are describing.

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    Default Re: Door family with nested frames

    Quote Originally Posted by tcatana View Post
    Do a search on this Site. Scott Womack posted a door which I think you can use as a basis to design what you want. I used it as a learning tool to create what I was looking for and I refer to it a lot as a complex example of what you are describing.
    Thanks for the "Plug"

    The release of 2011 will provide yet another opportunity for doors and windows. With the addition of reporting parameters (dimensional only), you'll now be able to "capture" the wall width as a parameter, and do "calculations" on it. For instance, the frame can be set to wrap the wall thickness, until the wall gets so thick, and then the frame will revert to inset in the wall. The interesting thing is, you'll now be able to schedule the width of the frame, even when it is wrapping the wall!

    I'm looking into its use for windows, so the inner marble or slate window sill (Commercial Work) can be calculated, and its width and length can be scheduled automatically. This will provide better contractor bids, and make the shop drawing process easier and faster to check.

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