Sharing the *Model*?

[Dave Jones]

I know that there are a lot of Architects that frequent this forum so I'd like to ask for some input to get opinions from "the other side". I am a self employed curtain wall detailer that works for commercial glazing firms. I have recently started to make the transition from AutoCAD to Revit and am presently working on my first project in Revit and it's going along nicely. My question is this: why is it that Architects will not share the Revit model with anyone? I'm working on a hospital building that is constructed of poured in place concrete shear panels, stucco exterior finish over said shear panels or steel stud framing, concrete floors, and a metal roof over steel joist framing. All of these building entities have been modeled by the Architect (or Structural Engineer) and exist because I'm looking at hard copy drawings of them and the plot stamp has the file name ending in .rvt. I have requested, through my customer, a copy of the model and have been turned down without explanation. Does it seem strange to anyone but me that all of these building components would have to be recreated by any and all subcontractors and suppliers that need the components to "install" their product?

When I started down this BIM path I was lead to believe that the *model* was created for the good of all project team members (and that includes me). What good is the model doing anyone if there is no collaboration, no checking by those that know the specifics of their trade intimately, no trusting that those on the team will accurately portray their part of the model? Seems like just another CAD program to me, used to output documents to hard copy. As a matter of fact this harkens back some years ago when Architects would, under no circumstances, share AutoCAD .dwg files of their docs. That's changed radically. Is it just a matter of time before Revit docs will be shared?

I'd enjoy some thoughts from your perspective,

[cliff collins]

It is a Contractual matter.

The Owner, Architect and GC all enter into Contracts, which may or may not have specific
language concerning BIM, and esp. sharing of BIM.

IPD ( Integrated Project Delivery ) is a new concept which breaks down the traditional Design/Bid/Build agreements and brings all team members on board early. There are special new AIA Contracts just for IPD.

It sounds like you are in a BIM project, but not in a collaborative Contractual setup like IPD.

Ask the GC if he knows how the Contracts are setup and if there is any specific language
regarding BIM. His answer will give real clues to how the project has been set up contractually, and his understanding of BIM and how it is to be used on this job.

You are correct that BIM lends itself to a new delivery method where all team members share the BIM for pre-concept phase thru post construction--it just doesn't always work out that way in real-world contract negotiations--yet. This is a rapidly changing environment.

Just keep asking for the BIM, perhaps call the GC and see if he can ask the Arch.--and tell them WHY you would like to share in the BIM.

cheers

[patricks]

I think one of the issues might be that their model is full of custom-made families and other things that they don't want to go around sharing with everybody. I can understand this as family creation takes time, and there are even places that sell custom Revit families for purchase. If their model contains purchased families, I wouldn't want to share it, either.

Perhaps you could try asking for a 3D DWF file made from the Revit model? I really don't know anything about what they kind of workflow would entail, but at least it's a start. If nothing else, you could at least ask them for CAD exports of the elevations showing the curtain walls.

[Dave Jones]

It is a Contractual matter.

The Owner, Architect and GC all enter into Contracts, which may or may not have specific
language concerning BIM, and esp. sharing of BIM.

IPD ( Integrated Project Delivery ) is a new concept which breaks down the traditional Design/Bid/Build agreements and brings all team members on board early. There are special new AIA Contracts just for IPD.

It sounds like you are in a BIM project, but not in a collaborative Contractual setup like IPD.

Ask the GC if he knows how the Contracts are setup and if there is any specific language
regarding BIM. His answer will give real clues to how the project has been set up contractually, and his understanding of BIM and how it is to be used on this job.

You are correct that BIM lends itself to a new delivery method where all team members share the BIM for pre-concept phase thru post construction--it just doesn't always work out that way in real-world contract negotiations--yet. This is a rapidly changing environment.

Just keep asking for the BIM, perhaps call the GC and see if he can ask the Arch.--and tell them WHY you would like to share in the BIM.

cheers

thanks for the enlightening information Cliff. I will indeed ask these questions. One of the things that I'm going to do in the future is present my proposals with 2 options: 1) the price for the work if I can get the Revit model and 2) the price +30% (or whatever) if I can't. Historically once Owners find out that there is a cost factor for a one way or the other decision the lesser price has some weight to it. Especially if they are getting from a lot of subcontractors. Thanks again!

[Dave Jones]

I think one of the issues might be that their model is full of custom-made families and other things that they don't want to go around sharing with everybody. I can understand this as family creation takes time, and there are even places that sell custom Revit families for purchase. If their model contains purchased families, I wouldn't want to share it, either.

Perhaps you could try asking for a 3D DWF file made from the Revit model? I really don't know anything about what they kind of workflow would entail, but at least it's a start. If nothing else, you could at least ask them for CAD exports of the elevations showing the curtain walls.

from my perspective it's like if I'm modeling door handles. Why should I have to model all of the door frames and doors that receive the door handles when someone has already done it. I fully understand the value of families but this is no different than blocks or dynamic blocks in Acad files. Architects have spent the same amount of time to create that content and yet share those drawings freely these days. I don't need any of the families created by Architects for two reasons, one because they don't relate to my work, and two because I don't trust anyone's family creation other than my own.

I just need the holes in the buildings that will have curtain walls installed in them. And I need them in .rvt. DWF isn't any more use to me than the hard copy dwgs that are sitting here.

thanks for the input!

[cliff collins]

D,

Glad to help. In IPD, we would encourage the GC to bring in subs such as yourself very early in the conceptual design phase, and actually give input into the design process--before any modeling is done. We might even ask you to come up with 3 options for the curtainwall design, model them in Revit, and participate in the outcome! Wow! What a concept. Seems far-fetched, but it is already happening. Do a quick Google search on Intergrated Project Deivery and BIM.

Your comment on price is exactly why there's a shift toward IPD / BIM collaboration
which is hopefully becoming the norm in the near future.

cheers

[Scott D Davis]

I just need the holes in the buildings that will have curtain walls installed in them. And I need them in .rvt.

I would ask for just that then. Instead of asking for the whole model, tell them specifically what you need: Walls and openings where the curtain walls exist. They can pretty easily save out an RVT file with just those elements that you can use.

[Dave Jones]

I would ask for just that then. Instead of asking for the whole model, tell them specifically what you need: Walls and openings where the curtain walls exist. They can pretty easily save out an RVT file with just those elements that you can use.

great idea! I've been generally asking for the "model" while my need is not so great. I'll try the only this part direction and see what I can get.

[twiceroadsfool]

If if they really want to be all bent out of shape about "letting the model out of their office," then tell them to Group the walls and openings, and save the group out. itll give them a blank file, with just that stuff, and none of their precious office settings that they think are so valuable.

Having said that, if we were collaborating, we would hand it over. We do it all the time.

[Dave Jones]

If if they really want to be all bent out of shape about "letting the model out of their office," then tell them to Group the walls and openings, and save the group out. itll give them a blank file, with just that stuff, and none of their precious office settings that they think are so valuable.

Having said that, if we were collaborating, we would hand it over. We do it all the time.

Maybe we will some day. I'd look forward to it! I've put in a third request with the qualification that I need only the walls and floors where our curtain walls occur. I'm assuming that they would know how to do that. We'll see what the result is...