Architectural and Structural collaboration help

[colins208780]

We are about to embark on our first large project using a Revit equipped Structural Engineer. The Structural consultant is not part of our office and therefore we won't be able to work with the same central file. We will have to use the linking file method (unless there is another way I don't know about). The collaboration tools are one of the few areas in Revit that I have very little experience. Can anyone point me to an in-depth tutorial or something that really walks you through the process? I'm having trouble finding relevant information and the Autodesk tutorials barely touch on the subject at all. Any suggestions and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
--Colin

[Craig_L]

I work for a structural team, and have done a few collaboration models in the last few years.

There are a few factors to consider, I think firstly and most importantly, is the project size.
The project size should determine which method you are going to use. The larger the project, the slower things will go with multiple users all trying to work in one model, so linked models is a better approach. I would recommend linked models at all times, although others may disagree with me.

I believe that the linked model approach is better because it allows greater control for both teams. Engineers don't usually like it when important elements get moved about (such as load bearing walls or columns) and so allowing the structural team to have ownership of structural components is (for the structural team at least) favourable. This means that it forces communication between the teams that these elements may need re-work, and allows plenty of time for the engineers to consider or advise against such a change, rather than something being moved for a solely aesthetic purpose.

This of course raises the issue of "who owns what?" and "when do we give control to the other team"

This will depend on your project timeframe, and other contractual obligations you may have regarding the project.
Think about a project with a short deadline, obviously the Structural team needs control of their elements earlier so they can begin their documentation process with reasonable time to finish up.

The way it is usually done (or I have seen it done) is to sit down at the start of the project with a list of modelled elements. Put these in a tabulated or matrix format.
You can then put in dates, or deadlines, or issues (BA, DA, Pricing, Tender etc etc)
These should determine your hand-off timeline.

I would recommend that the architect retains control until at least DA, or Pricing. After this point the building design should be locked down and not as likely to change significantly. I wouldn't stretch the handover out past tender phase, as by this time the engineer should be controlling that structure so they can model footings and reo properly.
Once you hit your agreed hand-over date, the architect gives a model to the engineer who then in their linked model copies all slabs, walls, columns (all load bearing and structural elements). The architect deletes out of their model, and links the engineers back in with copy/monitor. Now the structural team has control of the agreed elements, and they also take responsibility for them, so this makes both of your lives somewhat easier.

Verbal communication using this method is important. Also viewing the linked elements in your model should be easy as you can filter by discipline. Don't rely on the revit tools to do all of your collaboration, I have seen companies attempt this and it's a nightmare.
The copy/monitor tool is great, but its exceedingly more powerful when used in conjunction with real communication.

There are loads of blogs etc on this topic of a "responsibility matrix" you just need to design and adapt one to suit you for revit, and your projects in general.
There is one here
http://www.digitalfutures.info/1/int...livery-bim%20/
(cant say I read all of it, but skim read it and seems appropriate)

Good Luck

[Scott Womack]

We are about to embark on our first large project using a Revit equipped Structural Engineer. The Structural consultant is not part of our office and therefore we won't be able to work with the same central file. We will have to use the linking file method (unless there is another way I don't know about).

As karalon10 commented, communication is the key, BOTH ways. Here is the US, it seems more than a couple of engineers do seem they are required to provide information back, concerning what they have done in a model. (Enough ranting)

I'm attaching an early version of a paper presented at our local Revit User's group back in 2008. This has been taken by many of the architectural, and structural firms locally, and expanded upon.

Good Luck!

[colins208780]

Thanks guys! Hopefully with your helpful info we will be able to go through this process as painless as possible. I'm the only Revit Veteran on staff (including the structural firm) so this will be interesting.
@ Scott- What book did you get the Lesson PDF from?

[Scott Womack]

Thanks guys! Hopefully with your helpful info we will be able to go through this process as painless as possible. I'm the only Revit Veteran on staff (including the structural firm) so this will be interesting.
@ Scott- What book did you get the Lesson PDF from?

At this point I don't remeber if it was a book, or a class at AU 2007. Sorry!

[colins208780]

No problem. I found that the new 2011 online help file has some similar info that is pretty good.

To delve deeper into the subject, I have a few more questions if you don't mind. Once I link the structural model back into my file (Structural is copying my grids, walls, etc.), what is the best way to show extra structural elements in my file? Columns, truss elements, beams, etc. I would like to show these for section purposes w/out having to redraw them. It seems like copy/ monitoring these items would bog down the system. If I leave the linked file in, then wouldn't I get redundant walls, floors, etc.? Would I have to turn them off (visibility graphics) in each and every view or is there a way to specify how the linked file displays universally? Sorry, that is a lot of questions...

[Scott Womack]

Once I link the structural model back into my file (Structural is copying my grids, walls, etc.), what is the best way to show extra structural elements in my file?

Structural Probably won't want to Copy/Monitor your walls. That is a common early mistake. Our structural engineer draws walls over mine (without veneers and finishes, etc.), and then uses the Monitor tool (Not Copy/Monitor) to set up a relationship between their centerlines.

When the structural file is linked in, via View Templates, set their file to Custom, Set their Detail Level to Medium, and then turn off everything but the structural "stuff". Then all of that will appear in your file. If they draw foundation walls (That you might want to see) then ask them to put them on a separate workset.

Columns, truss elements, beams, etc. I would like to show these for section purposes w/out having to redraw them. It seems like copy/ monitoring these items would bog down the system.

Yes, do not copy monitor their items. Their structural elements will appear, provided your section view depth is sufficient to cut them.

If I leave the linked file in, then wouldn't I get redundant walls, floors, etc.?

See answer above.

Would I have to turn them off (visibility graphics) in each and every view or is there a way to specify how the linked file displays universally? Sorry, that is a lot of questions...

Learn to Use View Templates, they are the greatest for collaboration.

Also, you'll need to ask your structural consultants to modify their "column" and Beam families to turn off "Show Pre-Cut in View" in each family (not each type within a family, but once for WF, once for Tube, etc.) to avoide issues with your cutting details from plans and not getting their columns to show up.

[cdatechguy]

I would also add.....use Worksets!

I know our structural folk use walls for their footings...but I don't want to see their above slab walls when I already have them in my architectural model. So they added a Foundation and Structural Walls worksets. This way I can turn off their walls, but still see the foundation footings in my sections and elevations. Beams and columns remain in their workset1.

[Craig_L]

Thanks guys! Hopefully with your helpful info we will be able to go through this process as painless as possible. I'm the only Revit Veteran on staff (including the structural firm) so this will be interesting.
@ Scott- What book did you get the Lesson PDF from?

That actually puts you in a great position.
You get to dictate how it will all happen rather than trying to come to agreements between disciplines that want to do it 4 different ways...

Something I didn't raise earlier, but is integrally important using a linked model approach is allowing some lee-way when it comes to deadlines.

A best practice approach is to edit your internal timelines (and consider these timelines in early consultation with your client) regarding project milestones.
(BA, DA, Tender, Construction)
As the project progresses you should allow more "lock out" time so the other consultants can catch up to the design team.

The structural engineer wont want to be changing documents at least not significant changes on the day an issue is to be made. Consider that you can not issue a new model for collaboration too close to a deadline and you should agree on a "model freeze" date where no more linking is to be done, until the next issue.
Usually what happens is that the architect (being the design lead) will be 1 issue ahead of the consultants. Plan on the fact that the others are playing catch-up with the lead design teams model, and allow them sufficient time to match your latest model (3 days at absolute minimum).

If you set an imaginary deadline (internally for the design lead team) of 1 week prior to the actual deadline, your consultants should be able to keep up, depending on your project size obviously.
Essentially, issue your (Tender issue for eg.) Model to your consultants 1 week prior to the actual deadline. The consultant is not to link any more models after this one, until AFTER the tender issue so this is your "frozen" model. This will allow you to prep all your documentation easily, and for your consultants to actually be up to date with the current issue. I have seen companies still editing the model on the day of an issue and this caused all sorts of problems, so this is something to consider early on, the lead team needs to actually be in the lead!

[colins208780]

Wow! Thanks again everyone. These tips are going to be extremely helpful. I think I'm actually just going to cut and paste this whole post and e-mail to my design team.
Thanks!