Dimension in Paper Space or Model?

[BeKirra]

Simple & clear statement:
Place dimensions in Model Space, always.

[cadtag]

Simple & clear statement:
Place dimensions in Model Space, always.

somtimes that's fine. other times it makes additional work for the downstream users. whether that matters to an individual's situation is their call.

dimensions are really only necessary on the hardcopy, at least, if things are drawn correctly in model space

[BeKirra]

somtimes that's fine. other times it makes additional work for the downstream users. whether that matters to an individual's situation is their call.

Not quite right.
With 20years drafting experience, I have worked for different industries and have found placing dimensions in model space just is fine. I have seen those drawings which have dimensions placed in M/S & P/S just confuse people. Especially when working with clients/consultants.

dimensions are really only necessary on the hardcopy, at least, if things are drawn correctly in model space

No. There are two purposes to place dimensions on the drawings:
1) for designer/drafter to check if the objects drawn are correct. In this case, it would be much easier for the designer/drafter when having all dimensions in M/S, unless the designer/drafter has such good habits drawing everything in P/S.
2) for people who is going to read the drawings. They may be your manager/engineer, or fabricator, etc.

[Kung Fu Drafter]

You know, this is just one of those fundamental differences that will never be resolved. In the land of CAD I survey, any annotation that is not automated (Civil 3D labels) goes in paperspace. So it is said, so it shall be done. However, there are people who are just as fanatical as I am, but decree that annotation be in modelspace throughout their kingdom.

It's right up there with whether the toilet paper should go over the roll (which it obviously should) or under the roll. You just can't convince someone to roll your way.

Then again, there are those drafters that mix their annotation in paperspace AND modelspace. But those guys are just insane.

- KFD -

[sinc]

It's right up there with whether the toilet paper should go over the roll (which it obviously should) or under the roll. You just can't convince someone to roll your way.
- KFD -

I don't particularly agree that it is that irrelevant.

We regularly take an Engineer's or Architect's drawings and use them for our survey calcs. We then make plots of the results and give the results to our survey crew. And for these plots, we often need at least some (if not all) of the Engineer's or Architect's dimensions and callouts on our plots.

When the Engineer's/Architect's dimensions are in modelspace, our life is easy. When they are in paperspace, it makes our life more complicated. We really don't like annotations in paperspace. General notes, title blocks, and that sort of stuff is fine in paperspace, but in general we don't like model annotations in paperspace, either in the stuff we do or in the drawings we receive from others.

[Laurie1]

That has come up in my office as well we do Architecture and Interior design. Also our office standards have not been updated for several years and I am working on that now... we place Annotation and Dims in model space on an xref plan... the xref is always clean... it works but trying to define a standard is always a process... I have one cad operator who prefers Annote and dims in Paper space... I have never used paper space annote and dims as office standard... i would be willing to try on a smaller project and see how it compares...

[BlackBox]

... this allows our clients, and contractors alike to reference our master alone, both our master and the sheet text (two separate drawings), or the sheet text alone as they see fit.

Here's to diversity, and the perpetual war - Cheers!

I don't particularly agree that it is that irrelevant.

We regularly take an Engineer's or Architect's drawings and use them for our survey calcs. We then make plots of the results and give the results to our survey crew. And for these plots, we often need at least some (if not all) of the Engineer's or Architect's dimensions and callouts on our plots.

When the Engineer's/Architect's dimensions are in modelspace, our life is easy. When they are in paperspace, it makes our life more complicated. We really don't like annotations in paperspace. General notes, title blocks, and that sort of stuff is fine in paperspace, but in general we don't like model annotations in paperspace, either in the stuff we do or in the drawings we receive from others.

That is the very reason for our methodology of using masters, and sheets (with annotations in model space) as separate files.

Real world examples:

We have an active multi-phase Design-Build project, and our sub's survey tech is doing the AsBuilts (AB) as we complete the phases. I provide him our masters, and sheets, and he adds the AB data right on top of our sheets.

Separately, we're working on another project where we are doing the roadway design, and plan production, yet another firm is doing the drainage design (ugh... State job). We provide them our plan, and profile masters, so they can design the drainage networks only. Then they provide us the finished design, and minimal annotations (so we know what pipe sizes they are, etc.), and we incorporate their work accordingly.

The amount of extra work necessary to take the annotations from paper space, would be ridiculous for my projects, and the clients / contractors I work with.

On a side note - even MicroStation (ugh... cursed be thy name) knows better than to put annotations in paper space when exporting to AutoCAD / or being imported to AutoCAD (using Mapimport command) from .DGN.

[sinc]

The amount of extra work necessary to take the annotations from paper space, would be ridiculous for my projects, and the clients / contractors I work with.

Yep... That's the key point we hit.

You can hit something similar with a strict NCS-style implementation, with 1 plot DWG for every printed plan sheet. With that sort of system, you can still end up with lots of "subsets" of annotation spread over a large number of drawings, which can create headaches. But even that is easier to deal with than if all the annotations are in paperspace, and spread over lots of paperspace layouts.

[cadtag]

No. There are two purposes to place dimensions on the drawings:
1) for designer/drafter to check if the objects drawn are correct. In this case, it would be much easier for the designer/drafter when having all dimensions in M/S, unless the designer/drafter has such good habits drawing everything in P/S.
2) for people who is going to read the drawings. They may be your manager/engineer, or fabricator, etc.

I'm closing in on 30 in this biz... but machts nicht..
1) I don't see where paper space dimensions or model space dimensions make a difference in checking for correctness or quality control.

There are four possible scenarios -- (A)the object is drawn correctly, and the dimension is correct. (B)The object is incorrect, but the dimension is correct. (C)The object is correct, but the dimension is incorrect. (D) Both object and dimension are incorrect. Only the first is acceptable, but that's irrelevant to the space the dimension is placed relative to the object.

If you go by the rule that I was taught in tech school in the early eighties, a dimension should only appear once in a set of construction drawings, and it should appear where it is relevant -- that is, don't dimension the bathroom on the site plan and don't dimension the lot setback on the reflected ceiling plan.

2) yes, non cad users/reviewers may need dimensions to understand what the distances are, but they get hard-copies (or virtual hard-copies, pdf, dwf, etc.) don't they? In which case the dimension is on the hardcopy, and it doesn't matter whether it is drawn in model space, paper space, or with stacked references a`la Renderman's scenario.

If the readers are getting CAD files, and opening it in a cad application or cad viewer, they ought to know how to get a distance in that application. If they don't, they are not going to be able to review much.

[swmarais]

Without question... ALL annotations, dimensions, notes, text, etc. annotative and in Model Space.
If I catch someone annotating in paper space in our office I delete the drawing and they will re-do it.

In paper space only the title block & viewports are allowed