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Thread: UK Based System Wall Family

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    Default UK Based System Wall Family

    Ralph Pullinger and I are looking at developing a UK Based System Wall Family Template, and we require your help. But in order to do so you will need a little background information and briefing on the kind of information we need to know, and our thoughts so far...

    Pop over to http://cadalot-revitlearningcurve.bl...milies-uk.html and have a look at the background and starting point for this thread....

    Q: What do you think of Ralphs proposed naming convention against that in GRBENU_Walls.rvt ?

    Q: To me light weight blockwork is Aircrete, What is normal weight blockwork?

    Q: Cavity or Air Gap?

    Q: What actual wall configurations are you specifying on real schemes from all those offered by the block and thermal insulation manufacturers?

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    To start the discussion off here are a few thoughts.

    1) Walls styles need to match the design process and include Generic walls for early design. These should include only a generic wall material.

    2).Wall components needs to be generic in terms of manufacturers. By this I mean the component needs to be Blockwork lightweight, and not a specific H+H aircrete block.

    3).Wall component naming should include Usage Generic, External or Internal etc. and then list the components from External to Internal. A list of acrynyms to be used needs to be defined, classifications for Uniclass and NBS keynoting included.

    4).Walls componenets need to inherent parameters from their materials. In reality the Architect or engineers is unlikely to specificy the exact block used on site but will specify the performance of the materials to be used. Manufacturers should be encouraged to provide material information parameter information.

    5) As the Wall designs can the be developed by changing the materials definitons assigned to those walls.

    Regards

    Paul

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Some quick thoughts -

    I think we need a set of timber frame wall types also.

    Cavity is correct terminology for building regulations so I think stick with it.

    We need a wider range of insulations type - EPS slabs, blown EPS balls, blown cellulose, mineral wool, PUR etc

    The naming on the final slide is just too long for practical use IMHO, much prefer simplified type names with less description in the name.

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    I think there was not a lot wrong with the original GRBENU_Walls System it needs a few new initials added for some of the make ups that Ralph has identified. But until we identify all the possible make ups and see what they look like in the dialogue box perhaps something between the two?

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Here is an excel spreadsheet starter for 10 - I'm not saying that the Key being currently used in the spreadsheet is what we will finally end up with but it's catch 22 we need to know how many different wall configurations are actually being used to see what we need in the system and how it will look like in the end
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Please add your wall configurations to this thread i.e. Here is a typical one from a recent scheme I worked on:-

    25 x 125 Thermowood Cladding
    42 x 42 Horizontal battens
    21 x 50 Vertical battens
    breather membrane
    100mm medium density block
    100mm cavity filled with mineral wool
    100mm lighweight block
    20mm Plaster

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Hi Alan,

    Looks like a good framework for discussion.

    I can see you are trying to establish the principles for abbreviations and have a consistent approach, and I think this is absolutely right, otherwise we end up with the mess we already have.

    However, in reading through the various wall types 2 thoughts struck me.
    1. Do we really have to have 3 letters to identify an abbreviation. Can certain words be 1 or 2 letters, purely because of where they are in the description. I’m thinking of Ren & Pls for Render & Plaster respectively. These can only be on the finished side of a wall, so ‘R’ & ‘P’ will probably suffice, (and if anyone doesn’t know one is external and the other is internal, then maybe they should look to change profession  ).
    2. Never used ‘Normal’ brickwork as a description, but could probably reserve the abbreviation for future use.
    3. Pty always looks like ‘Pity’ to me. If we can agree to use up to a maximum of 3 letters for an abbreviation, then PW for Party Wall falls more comfortably on my eyes. Brk instead of Bwk (Blockwork?)
    4. Your listing of wall types is logical, but I feel it could be more workable when it comes to choosing they wall type.
    Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls and
    Ext_20Ren_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls
    are both essentially the same wall, just one has had Render applied. But they are not listed adjacent to each other alphabetically.

    Could these be named as follows?
    Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19P
    Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-20R-19P

    This bunches them together neatly, makes them easier to find. We all know which side the Render goes so there should be no confusion.
    Damian
    I know it can be done, I just don't know how to do it yet

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Damo View Post
    Hi Alan,

    Looks like a good framework for discussion.

    I can see you are trying to establish the principles for abbreviations and have a consistent approach, and I think this is absolutely right, otherwise we end up with the mess we already have.

    However, in reading through the various wall types 2 thoughts struck me.
    1. Do we really have to have 3 letters to identify an abbreviation. Can certain words be 1 or 2 letters, purely because of where they are in the description. I’m thinking of Ren & Pls for Render & Plaster respectively. These can only be on the finished side of a wall, so ‘R’ & ‘P’ will probably suffice, (and if anyone doesn’t know one is external and the other is internal, then maybe they should look to change profession  )..
    The jury is still out on the three letters, and why not use whole words like Stud instead of Std for the moment it's a way to build a list and we can tweak it once we have found the longest wall construction.

    The originial GRBENU_Walls used "R" and "P" it also ised "i" and "a" for Insulation and Air Gap - It worked but was not consistant.

    I think Location_[size][materail code or name]-[size][material code or name]-[etc.etc works....

    There are those that want classifications for Uniclass and NBS keynoting included and links to the BS for naming, but these are not layers like AutoCAD they are forms of construction and the bottom line is that they must be easy to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damo View Post
    2. Never used ‘Normal’ brickwork as a description, but could probably reserve the abbreviation for future use..
    What is "Normal"? that's why I produced the list of blocks on my posting at http://cadalot-revitlearningcurve.bl...milies-uk.html I like Light / Medium and Heavy or even Dense as normally that means Heavy

    Quote Originally Posted by Damo View Post
    3. Pty always looks like ‘Pity’ to me. If we can agree to use up to a maximum of 3 letters for an abbreviation, then PW for Party Wall falls more comfortably on my eyes. Brk instead of Bwk (Blockwork?)
    .
    I like the idea of PW and will adopt that on the spreadsheet

    I've seen more Bwk rather than Brk used on Architects drawings


    Quote Originally Posted by Damo View Post
    4. Your listing of wall types is logical, but I feel it could be more workable when it comes to choosing they wall type.
    Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls and
    Ext_20Ren_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls
    are both essentially the same wall, just one has had Render applied. But they are not listed adjacent to each other alphabetically.
    .
    The list is in spreadsheet build order, you are right that minor variations are the addition of render or plasterboard and dabs instead of plaster the rest of the walls can be the same - the final order will depend on how we construct the family.

    Perhaps all Rendered walls should be grouped together?

    Perhaps all Fair Face Brickwork Walls should be grouped together?

    First we must create a list of all the wall type that are actually being specified with their properties then we can sort out how best to arrange them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Damo View Post
    Could these be named as follows?
    Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19P
    Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-20R-19P
    .
    Can't agree with this,

    Quote Originally Posted by Damo View Post
    This bunches them together neatly, makes them easier to find. We all know which side the Render goes so there should be no confusion.
    I take your point about any one in construction should know to Render the outside and Plaster the inside of a wall, but there are some really thick people out there;0)

    Lets keep it "KISS" Keep It Simple Stupid - we read from left to right - so lets keep to the construction notation from Outside to Inside and in order of size and construction material

    Thanks for the feedback, if you or anyone else reading this thread could post a list of wall constructions that are not already in the spreadsheet and that you have been using over the last 10 - 20 years so we can continue building the wall list that would be great

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Hi Elrond

    Thanks for taking the time to post and your views like all those that bother to become involved are noted and will be considered in the creation of the system and family (did you see what I did there Mum ;0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Some quick thoughts -

    I think we need a set of timber frame wall types also..
    I agree about the timber framed wall construction - care to share what you have been using so that it can be added to the list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Cavity is correct terminology for building regulations so I think stick with it.
    If we use Cavity we are not taking into account it now days it can be fully or partially filled with insulation, so I agree with you about the correct terminology but cavity walls can also be used internally i.e. Party Walls so the Ext and Int for External and Internal works better than the CW notation that has been used historically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    We need a wider range of insulations type - EPS slabs, blown EPS balls, blown cellulose, mineral wool, PUR etc.
    I agree, but do we need to have the same wall family a number of times because the type of insulation is different? That would make the family list huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    The naming on the final slide is just too long for practical use IMHO, much prefer simplified type names with less description in the name.
    I take you point about the length of the name and I like the GRBENU_Wall notation but it will not cover all of the possible forms of construction, what's being used in the spreadsheet at the moment is a "means to an end" and will be reviewed once we have all the different wall types defined and feedback from people like your good self.

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    Default Re: UK Based System Wall Family

    Hi paul

    I know that we have chatted on the phone re this but to keep the threat alive here are my replies for others to comment upon:-

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul.84958 View Post
    To start the discussion off here are a few thoughts.

    1) Walls styles need to match the design process and include Generic walls for early design. These should include only a generic wall material.
    Noted and will be added to the list, can you suggest a few examples?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul.84958 View Post
    2).Wall components needs to be generic in terms of manufacturers. By this I mean the component needs to be Blockwork lightweight, and not a specific H+H aircrete block.
    My point was "what is lightweight", to me it's Aircrete or what was Autoclaved Airated Concrete Blocks, the properties of which can be seen on my posting at http://cadalot-revitlearningcurve.bl...milies-uk.html Any Lightweight Block should have the properties of the heaviest of the Aircrete blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul.84958 View Post
    3).Wall component naming should include Usage Generic, External or Internal etc. and then list the components from External to Internal. A list of acrynyms to be used needs to be defined, classifications for Uniclass and NBS keynoting included.
    And we await the results of you forth coming meeting re Uniclass etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul.84958 View Post
    4).Walls componenets need to inherent parameters from their materials. In reality the Architect or engineers is unlikely to specificy the exact block used on site but will specify the performance of the materials to be used. Manufacturers should be encouraged to provide material information parameter information.
    They do in their brochures

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul.84958 View Post
    5) As the Wall designs can the be developed by changing the materials definitons assigned to those walls.
    OK can you be a little more specific here?

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