MEP needs to be able to copy/monitor architectural ceilings

[Wish List System]

Summary: Copy/Monitor Ceilings

Description: Imagine placing a lighting fixture or ceiling diffuser and it actually cuts a hole in the ceiling! Sometimes I dream about it when I eat spicy foods at night.

Product & Feature: Revit MEP

Submitted: Thu, 17 Nov 2011

[sven.129574]

This is badly needed. It doesn't really do a lot of good to Copy/Monitor diffusers, sprinkler heads, speakers, security cameras, RFID devices, receptacles, etc. in ceilings, because the architectural model almost never has such devices in it. Instead, the architect models the ceiling, and the MEPT engineers place the devices. So when the architect moves a ceiling or changes a ceiling grid, the MEPT engineers don't notice that they need to reposition all their devices. MEPT engineers need to be able to Copy/Monitor ceilings, so that they know where they need to move stuff.

[wimtas]

In my opinion, it's the architect that should copy/monitor your devices in his model. He's the owner of the ceiling and hence owner of the holes.

[wimtas]

This is badly needed. It doesn't really do a lot of good to Copy/Monitor diffusers, sprinkler heads, speakers, security cameras, RFID devices, receptacles, etc. in ceilings, because the architectural model almost never has such devices in it. Instead, the architect models the ceiling, and the MEPT engineers place the devices. So when the architect moves a ceiling or changes a ceiling grid, the MEPT engineers don't notice that they need to reposition all their devices. MEPT engineers need to be able to Copy/Monitor ceilings, so that they know where they need to move stuff.

Can you not copy/monitor the ceiling? If you can, problem is solved, not?

[mitchellvoss]

in my opinion, the architect needs to be able to copy/monitor the lights from the mep model. electrical would control the lights and the architect would control the ceiling, everyone is happy. i can't count how many projects where i go to place a light fixture in my model and can't because the architect has placed a light in their model, thus cutting a hole. the mep model sees a hole instead of the ceiling. i even had one architect, give them some credit for trying to help, deleted their lights and replaced them with voids in the ceiling so that their rcp looked correct. Hey Autodesk, I would gladly be a consultant for MEP.

[sven.129574]

As of Revit 2014, you still can't Copy/Monitor a ceiling. Just the fixtures, devices, air terminals, etc. in the ceiling. That's Autodesk's official "correct" procedure, but that workflow is a problem. Why?

1.) Probably 80% of the time that architects modify a ceiling, they don't change it's height, they change its grid. Face-based devices on the ceiling don't see this as a change, even though the engineers have to move the devices in response to the grid change.

2.) Most architectural models don't have sprinkler heads, speakers, wireless access points, security cameras, mag-locks, occupancy sensors, smoke detectors, data jacks, exit lights, or even power receptacles or diffusers/grilles in their ceilings. Architects rarely place these themselves or bother C/M-ing them, and if they don't, there isn't anything to connect the Copy/Monitoring to. I think it's perfectly sensible to not include such elements in the architectural model, since those devices are included in other models, and including them in the architectural model would slow it down considerably.

3.) Even if the these devices were Copy/Monitored into the architectural model, the architects shouldn't be the ones trying to move them in response to a change in ceiling grid change. Those are engineering decisions. Architects and their interns, bright though they may be, are not necessarily experts in knowing whether a diffuser can be moved without affecting airflow or exceeding flex duct limits, whether moving a jack will exceed a maximum path length, whether moving a light fixture closer to the corner will still maintain an acceptable amount of workplane illumination, what restrictions are placed on sprinkler location, etc. But if the architects don't move the devices, the devices don't generate coordination alerts, even if C/M-ed.

4.) It's the engineers who are legally liable if devices are not located properly in the ceilings. But in the official "correct" workflow, the engineers don't get a coordination alert unless the architect moves devices as well as the ceiling grid. So if the architect moves the grid without also CM-ing and moving the device, the engineer has to pay for the architect's failure to do so. But why should the architect have to move the devices? It's not in their traditional scope of work. Plus, see point #3.

5.) Have you ever tried to C/M several hundred devices? You take a noticeable performance hit. Note that buildings routinely have several thousand or several tens of thousands of devices in ceilings. There is probably an average of about 10 devices per ceiling. A large retail, office, or library space might have hundreds of devices in a single ceiling. There a whole lot less C/M-ing if you just have to C/M the ceiling instead of each individual device.

Yeah, the engineer is supposed to notice the ceiling grid change even without a coordination alert, but it's a lot easier to notice it with a coordination alert. BIM is supposed to make things like this easier.

What really needs to happen is for the Engineer to be able to C/M ceilings. Not because the Engineer will ever make a design change to a ceiling, but because they need to know when the Architect makes one. That way, when the ceiling grid changes, the Engineers will actually get a coordination alert (without relying on the architect editing an affected device), and will be able to modify their design appropriately. The Architect has less work, and the Engineer gets notified of everything he needs to know, and there is less duplication of effort.

[Wish List System]

This wish has been reported as granted and already in the software.