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Thread: Rotating from True North to Project North

  1. #1
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    Default Rotating from True North to Project North

    Summary: Rotating from True North to Project North is overly complicated and messes up the Revit model. &%$#@$#%& !!!!

    Description: I start my project on a site plan with a true North view. There I draw the property lines with distances and bearings supplied by the surveyor. (I am in the Southern Hemisphere, and have mirror my diagram horizontally and vertically, but is complaint is on another wish list)

    Then I underlay a Google Earth Pro aerial photograph and build the topsurface.

    When I have everything nicely set up, I rotate from true North to Project North on a new site plan view.

    BOOM !!!

    Everything goes to hell. Everything I drew is suddenly scattered all over the place.
    Seriously, I do not even know why you have this function, if it does not work properly.

    I am fully aware that by rotating from true- to project North, it only influences the 3D elements and not 2D elements. But, this is wrong.Why on earth would you only want to rotate your 3D elements? Why?

    Free software like Sketchup can effortlessly differentiate between true- and project North without totally losing it's mind like Revit.

    God forbid if you decide to change the angle of your project North when you are already far down the road with developing your building. That is pure suicide. It is "don't go there" territory.

    Anyway,

    I will pop a big bottle of champagne if this is resolved with Revit 2032.
    I will literally pass out from surprise if I see it in Revit 2017.

    Just give it your best shot,

    Regards,

    Paul Evans




    Product and Feature: Revit Architecture - Other

    Submitted By: paul715904 on 12/09/2015


  2. #2
    Revit Forum Manager Steve_Stafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Fwiw, conceptually Revit is designed to start with Project North, make it easy to put on paper. All views in the stock templates are assigned to Project North. Later, define True North...the Rotate True North tool won't do what you are experiencing with Rotate Project North. Rotate True North is rotating the world under the building while Rotate Project North is attempting to rotate the building on the world...which is much harder to do. You have to select every element in the model and use Rotate...if you were going to do that yourself. Then you have to make sure all the annotation in every view is still intact. That's what Rotate Project North is attempting to do for us.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Thank you for the explanation/clarification Steve.
    I understand now. I can kick myself for not knowing that it is less hassle to rotate the Earth, instead of my building. I am an architect after-all and should know this (-;
    All sarcasm aside. Your feedback do solve my problem and I was not aware that rotating True North has a different effect to rotating Project North.
    Thanks.

    (Autodesk Question still remains.... Why so difficult !!?? .... We start with site information first. Cadastral information received is all orientated True North. This is the fixed information in the real world. Building orientation is variable)

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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    I agree with the suggestion that Autodesk could do a lot to simplify this critical process in Revit. While seasoned Revit users are familiar with the Project/True north differences, we still find users with years or decades or experience, making costly mistakes in setting up site orientation and boundaries.

    This is largely due to the ambiguity of the process, and the way surveyors and titles are labelled or not labelled. For example, surveyors use terms such as Survey North/True North/Grid North/Magnetic North (a very widely used version is Google Maps North for many Architecture offices). Along with that are boundary bearings and distances which are often in D/M/S, sometimes decimal degrees, always without N-S/E-W being given and commonly with angles greater than 180° -- the way Revit allows for these to be input leads to inaccurate boundaries and a lot of wasted time.

    In combination, these two related issues create inaccurate shadows (accurate shadows are required on all development approval permits), and potentially huge risks (redesign, demolition/remedial works, litigation, etc.) if a building boundary is the wrong size, or just a few degrees off. Of course, we manage that risk by double-, triple-, quadruple-checking our documentation throughout the process, but still mistakes can happen, and Revit is currently not easing that process, nor improving quality control.

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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    I'm trying hard to fully grasp how rotating project north will affect elements in the model if you do in fact choose to rotate project north down the road. Isn't it basically just like rotating the view on a sheet of paper (in real life)? Aren't you just essentially rotating just the orientation of the view, not the model elements itself? Rotating project north will orient building AND the site to orient to a nice convenient view to work in. I don't understand how it will rotate the building on top of the world. (If by "world" you mean site plan)

  6. #6
    Revit Forum Manager Steve_Stafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Evans
    Why so difficult !!?? .... We start with site information first...
    It isn't difficult...if you know the rules

    In my twenty plus years in this business I've never started a project oriented to site because we've never started out with a survey in hand that was fresh. The reliable (new) survey has always come later. That means Revit spoke to me from the start, it matched my work experience exactly. Obviously some projects must start with a reliable survey, I've just never met one. Regardless, make it easy to draw "on paper" and then orient to site every time and "she'll be right" as some Australian friends say.

    This is also why I always use a separate site model...I can reorient a building on the earth much easier any time it becomes necessary. I've been glad I do more times than I can count.
    Last edited by Steve_Stafford; 2020-07-28 at 09:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Quote Originally Posted by fosland1 View Post
    I'm trying hard to fully grasp how rotating project north will affect elements in the model if you do in fact choose to rotate project north down the road.
    The tool was added to Revit a number of years after it was released because enough people failed to realize it was designed to start with project north. Rotate True North is an abstraction, an alternate degree of rotation that rotates how Revit presents the model to us. Rotate True North is actual rotation of model and annotation elements. Functionally behind the code they are very different operations.

    If you sketch a rectangle so it is square to project north (vertical sides point north/south), using Rotate True North does not do anything to the model, the view is reoriented to show the alternate angle (because each plan view is able to show either True or Project north, one actual, one "not"). Rotate True North actually rotates the building model and all the view annotation elements to stay aligned with the new building position. It's essentially the "oops I meant to draw the building at this angle instead of that angle tool".

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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Yes but how does Rotating Project north mess up any model elements? In what situation would it affect say MEP elements?

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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Quote Originally Posted by fosland1 View Post
    Yes but how does Rotating Project north mess up any model elements? In what situation would it affect say MEP elements?
    Depends heavily on specifics but the rotation doesn't work perfectly on all model conditions. I've seen air terminals not get rotated which creates havoc for flex duct and other connected duct elements. In-Place families don't always rotate consistently with the rest of the model. I've seen some projects work just fine while others "blow up". The Rotate Project North is equivalent to manually making sure every element in the model is selected and that all related annotation is selected as well...and then using Rotate.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Rotating from True North to Project North

    Oohhhh ok got it. That makes sense. Thanks Steve

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