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Thread: Taking measurements off hard copies

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    I guess the mistake I made in my statement was the OP didn't state whether their engineers expect to scale their drawings or externally produced drawings. If they are drawing at 1:1, the engineers know the risks of scaling off a drawing (ensuring plotted correctly, accuracy of the scale rule, etc) why are they worried about their drawings being scaled?

    They also don't state what industry they are in too. For AEC, if an engineer wanted to measure an approximate duct length, fire escape route, they really aren't going to go back to the architect for dimensions. A mental risk assessment tells you whether you should get something confirmed or not.

    CAD standards here state everything to be drawn & modelled 1:1. Projects with EIRs or a BEP state everything to be modelled at 1:1. If we're measuring something either off plan or on the computer and it turns out to be wrong, the issue is the modeller not doing their job correctly.

    I remember an old thread about this. An architect sent a drawing plan to someone in cad which stated do not scale this drawing so they went back and asked for every single dimension to be verified. Funnily enough they said measure the cad plan.

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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    As a client, I've actually seen this done intentionally. They'll run a program on their CAD file that skews everything just slightly. Not badly enough that it would be visibly off on the printed drawings, but so much so that you have to work pretty hard to re-use the CAD file (which, btw was in our specs, so ergo quotes, so we paid for a workable cad file that was intentionally damaged for 'intellectual property' reasons... I know IP is a thing, but, seriously, you're renovating a 150 yo building and I spec'd cad files as a deliverable, so get over yourselves).
    Well if that's what they want it just ends up costing them more money. When I have to spend an entire day like I just did recently to correct the parking lot that an architect sent me guess who gets billed.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    Quote Originally Posted by awntie View Post
    my engineers expect that when they use a scale on any hard copy the measurement will be accurate. experience tells me this is not the best practice but have no clear grounds for discouraging the reliance on this method. is it common in your offices?
    I agree with mostly with what has been stated in this thread.

    Yes, the model geometry should be drawn 1:1 accurately, and placed on the sheet with the properly scaled view port.
    In other words, the printed drawing should be of some agreed upon scale convention (depending on what industry it is).

    To answer the OP's question..
    Although it should be discouraged, you "should" be able to get reasonably accurate distances on printed drawings.
    A good argument for a scale bar (graphic scale) or at least a reference of one inch bar, so if a sheet is reduced or enlarged or otherwise not accurate you have a reference.

    As others have mentioned, someone shouldn't be measuring off the drawing to build something, but to use the given dimensions.
    I agree with that, other then to get some rough lengths or distances for estimating or material procurement, and even then, may need verification from the designer.

    That's my opinion anyway, and experience in the A/E/C field for over 20 years.

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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    Quote Originally Posted by remi678731 View Post
    Well if that's what they want it just ends up costing them more money. When I have to spend an entire day like I just did recently to correct the parking lot that an architect sent me guess who gets billed.
    I guess it depends on the contract, the client and agreed upon workflow on a design team.

    If I'm the architect and I have hired you to do site work for me, and I tell you I'm going to give you a workable drawing to use and it's wrong and you have to fix it, yes you should bill me on an agreed upon fee.
    but..
    If I'm the architect and I chicken scratched a parking lot in my concept drawing, and the lead contractor on the team we're both working for gave you my drawing file to use as is, well that's a different story.
    (I don't know why it wouldn't be drawn right, just that some people fudge things not to be used officially, or make no promises of their accuracy)

    I have gotten files from a government client (where they require files from design contractors when a project is complete) that aren't accurate,
    ..and we have to tell the gov't client we need to spend time to fix it or re-do it because they are bad, they usually agree to pay for the extra work.
    Which means they sometimes don't check the accuracy of the files they or given, or don't care.

    Just some thoughts

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    Mod / Salary / SM Wanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    Quote Originally Posted by remi678731 View Post
    Well if that's what they want it just ends up costing them more money. When I have to spend an entire day like I just did recently to correct the parking lot that an architect sent me guess who gets billed.
    Owners don't get to bill people. They get paid once the drawings are turned over and prance off into the sunset. Once I try to copy the pertinent bits into our master working sets a few weeks later... that's when reality hits.

    Well, that's part of the reason why I finally left the owner's side. Too much people giving me the middle finger and 'that's not my job' and then complaining on their next reno when there are no good starting docs available. Garbage in, garbage out! PMs are pretty much the only high-turnover part of facilities staffs, so, that's beating a head against a wall because most of them come from the construction side and don't think about long term impact for facilities.

    ... you know what, I'm digressing. Good for you for holding the offenders accountable!!!
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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    As a CAD Manager, and someone with over 20 years experience, I feel hard copy drawings should never be scaled, and dimensions should never be taken from a DWG file or RVT file. IF you plot something and the dimension is not there and is required you need to provide it. Many people feel that anything done on the computer (autoCAD or Revit) is 100% accurate and that is just not the case. 2D construction drawings should always contain the information required to build and fabricate. If you ever get the answer of "just scale it" or "it is in the DWG file" or "just go into the model" the person you asked the question of does not know the answer and does not have 100% faith in their work. Detailing and producing 2d drawings is an art form that is going by the way side and it should not be. For Revit users who work on BIM projects, yes a well built model is important, but if you also need to be able to provide that information to others out side the BIM team (sub-consultants or trades who do not work with BIM). Yes drawings should be accurate and people will scale them, but if they are done correctly there should never be a need for scaling.

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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    I've worked with CAD operators that would override dimensions to get rid of an occasional rouge dimension in a poorly drawn house plan. During the revision process stretch the dimension not realizing that it hadn't updated it. Had to quickly teach them about the precision command.

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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    Quote Originally Posted by tedg View Post
    Although it should be discouraged, you "should" be able to get reasonably accurate distances on printed drawings.
    A good argument for a scale bar (graphic scale) or at least a reference of one inch bar, so if a sheet is reduced or enlarged or otherwise not accurate you have a reference.
    +
    Even perfect drawings are often distributed as PDF's which are often plotted by non-drafters. Anyone scaling plotted drawings should at least check the graphic scale. I always check the longest linear section of an alignment or longest dimensioned line before scaling anything else.

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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    We include a bar scale on every page. With a note underneath
    Caution should be taken in comparing the written scale to the graphic scale to ascertain if this plan has been enlarged or reduced.

    We started doing this because clients would reduce sets of plans to fit on a smaller sheet of paper to make it easier for them to carry around then use a scale with this reduced set if they needed a measurement that wasn't given. Then they complain because something didn't work. Because the print wasn't at a proper scale so their measurement wasn't accurate. You can check the bar scale with a hand scale and tell right a way that the prints are reduced or enlarged.

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    Default Re: Taking measurements off hard copies

    I've had several occasions when I needed to plot to scale for measuring purpose and the printer is not calibrated. Not even sure if it can be done but the results on those occasions have had a length error of roughly .093 over ~16 inches and required a corrective scale factor for plotting. So even if your drawings is perfectly to scale your results may vary.

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