Best hardware upgrade for C3D with Aerial Images

[BlackBox]

Well what I meant was that the Samsung 970 Evo has a PCIe Gen 3.0 x4, NVMe Interface, in a M.2 Form Factor. But I see your point. You probably mean by "PCIe SSD" something like the Asus () HYPER M.2 X16 GEN 4 Card , Right?

No worries; less of a correction, and more of a clarification.

Yes, both technologies utilize PCIe lanes, but was wanting you to clarify which you were intending to include in the build, is all.

For PCIe SSD there are two variants - those that have embedded chips and those that are really just expansion cards meant to hold multiple M.2 sticks.

The Asus Hyper M.2 is good, but the Gigabyte Aorus seems to have better ratings/reviews - both support PCIe Gen 4 and are backwards compatible with your Asus Prime B460-PLUS' PCIe Gen 3 limitation, which also has two 16x slots (one for GPU and one for PCIe SSD).

Have you used one of those? One of those with four m.2 SSDs is probably way better than two m.2 directly on the motherboard right?
Not sure if it would help in my case, since the ASUS Prime B460-PLUS ( dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/PRIME_B460-PLUS/E16237_PRIME_B460-PLUS_UM_WEB.pdf ) pciex16_2 uses only 4 lanes. pciex16_1 would be taken by the graphics card. Or maybe we could put the graphics card into pciex16_2? Even with only 4 lanes, it would maybe be enough for it to do it's job. Maybe it would be more beneficial to use the pciex16_1 16 lanes for a faster storage solution (which is the bottleneck in most systems)?

I have not - as with our previous servers & workstations, it just didn't make any real sense to spend that kind of $$$ for local benefit only, when Samsung 970 Pro is so very cost-effective.

How many PCIe lanes you have available will ultimately depend on your CPU selection; AutoCAD products (like Civil 3D) demand the fastest single-core clock speed, but more cores means more PCIe lanes.

As example: the i9-10900 CPU noted above only includes 16x PCIe lanes, so you can run both, just no other PCIe expansion cards down the road. I am unsure if an 8x PCIe SSD will offer much more benefit than utilizing both OOTB M.2 SSD slots on that mobo.

You mean that for it to be benefical, more than 32GB RAM would be better?

Anything more than Autodesk's minimum system requirements is a good thing... When it comes to RAM, more is always better, regardless of if it simply allows one to have more drawings open at once, or if that helps speed things up by being able to be dedicated to MAPIOPTIONS for in-app speedup.

128GB, Wow! In what part of your work did you notice the 128GB making an actual difference?

From beginning to end; I frequently have +75 GB RAM utilization and can max it out when using Core Console to batch plot entire plan sets en-mass (aka in parallel).

That server is a beast!

It's just a newborn we got last summer from Dell for 56% discount, as their sales were low due to COVID ($27,985.44 delivered), and larger international firms cannot afford to make the same type of jump at each-and-every-single one of their offices to compete, so we have a strategic production advantage... the best part is that it only gets faster from here.

At the same time, we also got new workstations (in my signature specs) for same discount, bringing them down to $1,800/ea in total ($1,165/ea for Dell Precision 3630 + $170/ea for 512 GB Samsung 970 Pro + $525 for 128 GB DDR4 RAM kit and we already had NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPUs from our previous workstations which saved cost).

You mean your workstation storage can do 10000MB/s? Is that using a PCIe SSD as mentioned above?

Yes... No.

[Reem_Mcconnell]

Yes... No.

So you don't "only" have the single Samsung 970 Pro M.2 from your signature in your Workstation as I can see.


You made me think about installing 2 Samsung 980 Pro (PCIe 4.0) (Up to 7,000 MB/s Read ; Up to 5,100 MB/s Write) in RAID 1.

(I don't like the possible troubles of RAID 0; RAID 1 still gives double read speed; We have a backup, but if something happens, often, with RAID 1, we'd still be able to access the data on the drives from another computer; Not with RAID 0; I prefer more security) .

But then I saw this in the ASUS ROG Strix Z590-E mobo (dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/ROG_STRIX_Z590-E_GAMING_WIFI/E17988_ROG_STRIX_Z590-E_GAMING_UM_V2_WEB.pdf) manual: (Yes I plan to change the mobo to get PCIe 4.0; Maybe not that exact one though cause there's cheaper PCI 4.0 boards)
"Raid function for PCIe mode SSD in Intel® Rapid Storage Technology is available with either 1. Intel® SSDs installed in both CPU-attached and PCH-attached slots, or 2. any other 3rd party SSDs installed in PCH-attached slots."

There's 2 CPU-Attached PCIe 4.0 M.2 slots on that motherboard. Also two PCH-attached PCIe 3.0 M.2 slots.
According to the above statement, if I use 2 Samsung SSDs, I won't be able to connect them to the PCI 4.0 Slots... Only with Intel SSDs I'd be allowed to. Maybe not a deal breaker. They just don't make Intel PCIe 4.0 M.2 drives... Yet.

I'm just wondering if it's just not too much trouble to go the RAID way.


This option is interesting though: Western Digital WD BLACK AN1500 NVMe AIC 1TB PCI-Express 3.0 x8 Internal Solid State Drive (SSD). When they're gonna make them PCIe 4.0 it's going to be Awesome IMOHO. It needs a spare x8 slot though.

[Reem_Mcconnell]

At the same time, we also got new workstations (in my signature specs) for same discount, bringing them down to $1,800/ea in total ($1,165/ea for Dell Precision 3630 + $170/ea for 512 GB Samsung 970 Pro + $525 for 128 GB DDR4 RAM kit and we already had NVIDIA Quadro P4000 8 GB GPUs from our previous workstations which saved cost).

Do you have a preference for the RAM clock speed? Can it make a noticeable difference for C3D work?

[BlackBox]

So you don't "only" have the single Samsung 970 Pro M.2 from your signature in your Workstation as I can see.

The Samsung 970 Pro is the fastest physical disk I am running in this setup.

You made me think about installing 2 Samsung 980 Pro (PCIe 4.0) (Up to 7,000 MB/s Read ; Up to 5,100 MB/s Write) in RAID 1.

(I don't like the possible troubles of RAID 0; RAID 1 still gives double read speed; We have a backup, but if something happens, often, with RAID 1, we'd still be able to access the data on the drives from another computer; Not with RAID 0; I prefer more security) .

But then I saw this in the ASUS ROG Strix Z590-E mobo (dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/ROG_STRIX_Z590-E_GAMING_WIFI/E17988_ROG_STRIX_Z590-E_GAMING_UM_V2_WEB.pdf) manual: (Yes I plan to change the mobo to get PCIe 4.0; Maybe not that exact one though cause there's cheaper PCI 4.0 boards)
"Raid function for PCIe mode SSD in Intel® Rapid Storage Technology is available with either 1. Intel® SSDs installed in both CPU-attached and PCH-attached slots, or 2. any other 3rd party SSDs installed in PCH-attached slots."

There's 2 CPU-Attached PCIe 4.0 M.2 slots on that motherboard. Also two PCH-attached PCIe 3.0 M.2 slots.
According to the above statement, if I use 2 Samsung SSDs, I won't be able to connect them to the PCI 4.0 Slots... Only with Intel SSDs I'd be allowed to. Maybe not a deal breaker. They just don't make Intel PCIe 4.0 M.2 drives... Yet.

I'm just wondering if it's just not too much trouble to go the RAID way.


This option is interesting though: Western Digital WD BLACK AN1500 NVMe AIC 1TB PCI-Express 3.0 x8 Internal Solid State Drive (SSD). When they're gonna make them PCIe 4.0 it's going to be Awesome IMOHO. It needs a spare x8 slot though.

I know we just upgraded our workstations last year, but I'm also excited for PCIe 4.0 - just wasn't a viable consideration at the time we procured these.

If you can get all components that support PCIe 4.0, then that's a real consideration for the client - I usually offer the owner a good, better, best scenario and make the case for each, particularly demonstrating productivity gains from the better hardware performance for the cost, then let him choose - where I've been able to demonstrate I can save 15 Mins each day through normal daily tasks (opening/saving drawings, printing PDFs, etc), I've always been approved for the new hardware.

If you extrapolate that 15 mins / day out... 15 mins over 5x work days over 50x work weeks a year (assumes 2x weeks vacation) is 3,750 mins, or 62.5 hours, or 1.56 work weeks of time saved doing the things we already need to do, that can now be billable on other projects.

As for RAID 0 vs RAID 1, do what you want - given the doubling of SSD cost, I wouldn't implement RAID 1, as there is only an increased read (which isn't a bad thing), but given the alternative of 2x read & write speed alone for RAID 0, that (to me) justifies the cost of not only the 2x SSD for the RAID but also the backup (unused) disks to have on standby should they be needed. However, given the availability of them practically anywhere local or shipped in quickly for less, so long as you take daily backups (to internal HDD, external USB or NAS?) there's no risk of data loss.

Do you have a preference for the RAM clock speed? Can it make a noticeable difference for C3D work?

Yes, RAM is where the drawings and aerials are expanded for use, regardless of where the source files are saved (locally, on NAS/Server), so RAM speed has a direct affect on the resultant 'speed' the user feels in-app.

Look at the mobo RAM frequency limitations and get RAM with lowest possible CAS latency & fastest RAM clock speed (at that CAS); preferably with access to XMP for OC, given it is a custom build... Are you air cooling (via Noctua?) or liquid cooling for OC?

Dell mobos lock us out of XMP, so even with upgraded RAM kit, we're relegated to CAS latency of 18 for our 128 GB of DDR4 @ 2666, unfortunately... But that is still faster than a GPU RAM drive using our DDR5 Quadro P4000, given the slowdown of now having to ride the bus back and forth from CPU to GPU, as compared to CPU to RAM... At the end of the day, the cost benefit though, of getting what all we got for that low of a price, far outweighs the cost of what it would take for custom build that could do more (plus the non-billable time to assemble for each user once parts are received).

[Reem_Mcconnell]

Are you air cooling (via Noctua?) or liquid cooling for OC?

I'm thinking about CL16 DDR4-3200 RAM. We'll use NOCTUA-NH-U12A air cooling.

The Samsung 970 Pro is the fastest physical disk I am running in this setup.

So how do you achieve the 10000MB/s you mentionned earlier? Was that on your workstation or Server? (If it's not a secret... I won't tell )

As for RAID 0 vs RAID 1, do what you want - given the doubling of SSD cost, I wouldn't implement RAID 1, as there is only an increased read (which isn't a bad thing), but given the alternative of 2x read & write speed alone for RAID 0, that (to me) justifies the cost of not only the 2x SSD for the RAID but also the backup (unused) disks to have on standby should they be needed. However, given the availability of them practically anywhere local or shipped in quickly for less, so long as you take daily backups (to internal HDD, external USB or NAS?) there's no risk of data loss.

Yes, we could do a second backup on an internal SATA drive every day, just to be sure. I like to have more than 1 backup.

I've read that RAID can induce more latency though. Probably not enough latency to be bothersome.
https://www.eteknix.com/year-nvme-ra...world-setup/7/

Where I've been able to demonstrate I can save 15 Mins each day through normal daily tasks (opening/saving drawings, printing PDFs, etc), I've always been approved for the new hardware.

Good point.

[BlackBox]

I'm thinking about CL16 DDR4-3200 RAM. We'll use NOCTUA-NH-U12A air cooling.

Big fan of Noctua. #punny

So how do you achieve the 10000MB/s you mentionned earlier? Was that on your workstation or Server? (If it's not a secret... I won't tell )

It's (not so) hidden in the images found in the 'C3D Workstation' thread I linked... Best $50 upgrade ever.

Yes, we could do a second backup on an internal SATA drive every day, just to be sure. I like to have more than 1 backup.

You can get a 16 TB 12Gb/s SAS HDD for less than $400 these days, but the ASUS ROG Strix Z590-E only support 6x 6Gb/s SATA ports, so that gives you some options.

You could either run a single large capacity HDD or 2x of same in RAID 1 for the redundancy, if not 6x smaller HDD (I like 1 TB WD Velociraptor 10K RPM) in RAID 5.

I've read that RAID can induce more latency though. Probably not enough latency to be bothersome.
https://www.eteknix.com/year-nvme-ra...world-setup/7/

Hardware controller is always better than software RAID, but ultimately even software RAID 0 is better than non-RAID.

Good point.

I'm fortunate to have a good one every now and then. Haha

[Reem_Mcconnell]

Big fan of Noctua. #punny

LOL Me too.

It's (not so) hidden in the images found in the 'C3D Workstation' thread I linked... Best $50 upgrade ever.

Ah OK! A 32GB RAM disk! I see now why you need 128GB of RAM. Do you use is as the temp folder for C3D?

[BlackBox]

LOL Me too.

Knew you were good people.

Ah OK! A 32GB RAM disk! I see now why you need 128GB of RAM.

Hooray, 1986 technology!

Do you use is as the temp folder for C3D?

At first, yes, back when I used a much smaller disk... It's now grown to 64 GB and frequently saves to physical disk image, because directory symbolic links are a beautiful thing.

You'll have to do some testing for yourself to see which combination of junctions yields the best bang in-app though, as there is a difference between random & sequential read/write for physical and virtual disks.

[Reem_Mcconnell]

Hooray, 1986 technology!

What? The 1986 Dodge RAM? I liked it a lot. Very good grip on the road.

It's now grown to 64 GB and frequently saves to physical disk image, because directory symbolic links are a beautiful thing.

I'll have to experiment with this.

By the way I'll probably go with the i9-11900k. Better than the i9-10900k on single thread (16% better). I don't overclock usually, but it was the only one available to pre-order.

[BlackBox]

I'll have to experiment with this.

By the way I'll probably go with the i9-11900k. Better than the i9-10900k on single thread (16% better). I don't overclock usually, but it was the only one available to pre-order.

As of March 1, 2021 Intel has discontinued their Performance Tuning Protection Plan, so no more supplemental warranty replacement - was pretty reasonable too, was only $30 for my previous i7-7700K (a couple of workstations ago).

That said, although not listed on the Intel Performance Maximizer site, the i9-11900K does have a download for it here.

You'll also find Intel XTU app useful.

Cheers