Assoc. drafting degree?

[Wanderer]

I agree with you in some regards.........it is too bad that AutoDesk doesn't give students free copies of the software for instructional purposes (I'm not sure if they do?).
Would help alot of bored dorm students lear AutoCad if they could mess around with
the software in their spare time. Definately too expensive for a student to grab a copy!

I'm not sure of the exact price, maybe a couple hundred dollars, if you are a student. But, you have to purchase them through the school (typically the bookstore and you have to have your class schedule with you to prove you are in a cad class).

[CADKitty]

I'm not sure of the exact price, maybe a couple hundred dollars, if you are a student. But, you have to purchase them through the school (typically the bookstore and you have to have your class schedule with you to prove you are in a cad class).

I want to say it's $500 or less, Melanie...but be really careful of that Educational Plot Stamp!

[Wanderer]

I want to say it's $500 or less, Melanie...but be really careful of that Educational Plot Stamp!

I thought about mentioning that. yes, anything that was created with this, even if it is just one entity, such as a block, copied over to another drawing in a legit version of acad, will bring in this plot stamp, and you have to contact your reseller to 'clean' the drawings or something.

[Li'l Crys]

I have an Associates in drafting and while when I got my first drafting job, I didn't quite feel adequate for the job, I knew the commands. My main problem was that everything was already customized for the company, so I had to learn other commands as well.

[Brian Myers]

I thought about mentioning that. yes, anything that was created with this, even if it is just one entity, such as a block, copied over to another drawing in a legit version of acad, will bring in this plot stamp, and you have to contact your reseller to 'clean' the drawings or something.

Not only that, but you can't legally use the educational version to profit from... so no side projects using the Educational version... just class work (and personal learning).

[Brian Myers]

My main problem was that everything was already customized for the company, so I had to learn other commands as well.

Which brings up another point, just like not all companies are set-up the same, not all colleges are set-up the same. A few still do most work on the boards, others 50-50, still others do most everything on CAD. But what if your college uses Microstation or Revit instead of AutoCAD? Should an Architectural school only use Revit? Should they start with AutoCAD and move to either Revit or ADT?

This is one of the biggest questions we'll have on a University/College/Tech School level over the next 5-10 years.... and how will companies (and grads) deal with the challenges of otherwise qualified employees not being trained in the software that the employers use? This is a different type of interoperability beyond the "simple" challenge of sharing information.... how do schools produce the best students when it's no longer a question of which Pencil lead or type of paper to use... this is a question of the best program to facilitate education while still producing students that will be useful and tech savy when they leave school. Will students and their training be interoperable with the work environment they enter into?

[glee.94356]

It used to be that your problem was choosing between different CAD programs while in college. Autocad or Microstation. For awhile it was easy for many colleges because of Autocad's dominance. With the advent of BIM and the many different programs out there vying for dominance we are sort of back to when you had to choose between two or more programs for drafting/ BIM.
A student who is savvy and understands the importance of CAD, modeling or BIM in the real world will take the pains to research which particular application is appropriate for his field. Then take the appropriate courses and try to obtain real world experience through internships.
For the most part many employers are very picky about new grads. When two grads with equally good portfolios appear on your door step, you look to the one with most experience or abilities that will minimize that training or breaking in period.
I teach part time at a junior college (both design & CAD) and when it comes to CAD, you get all kinds. Some students are motivated and will push to learn as much as possible. Some have the attitude that CAD isn't design and they don't really need it because they are the next generation FLW or Frank Gehry or whatever. So it does come down to the students themselves (and the influence some lecturers may have dispensed).
On the academic half of the equation, many lecturers have little or no real world experience. In fact some look down on practitioners. Those that have worked before probably are so far distant from it that their experience has little relevance.
Colleges can anticipate and try to provide the appropriate courses but if the academics themselves are out of touch, how can they make proper recommendations as to the types of software or courses to provide? Top that off with budget cuts in education and you really have a problem.
As is the AEC industry is still picking it's way through CAD or BIM. Until that issue is well defined, colleges are not going to be the place where it's resolved.
I can't even figure out myself which path to follow but know that it's a good idea for now to keep my fingers in both pies and see how everything shapes up.
In the meantime, it's more about proper techniques. Teaching students how to function using whichever cad software within the work environment. Like the student who mentioned that he had to figure things out from scratch because his firm had everything customized differently. Maybe a primer on how to study a pgp file to figure out the shortcuts used by the firm. Learning how to be flexible and adapt their cad practices within a working environment. Why certain things are done so that different disciplines can coordinate and interoperate. Not just how to x-ref or block by why you use layer 0, or 0,0 as an insertion for files in the aec indsutry etc.
There has been talk about getting academics and professionals together and some schools have done that. But for the most part it's skin deep. Are there any academics in this forum? I noticed the education subforum has had no postings in awhile. Maybe it's time to draw them in and have a discussion on this subject.

[Jason.Moore]

<<draws up plans for collapseable soap-box, builds it and tries it out>>

I've been doing cad for over 17 years, I started when I was 18 fresh from high school in a "fill-in-the-blanks" job, i kept studying at every job, if the job would send me to a class, great. if not, I would buy the books, try it all myself and work it out over time. I am now at the point I can afford to take the time off and pay for My own classes when upgrades come around, and I stay up to date. I teach all the people at My office, and a few satellite offices too. I'm effectively the cad-manager, I tell everyone about updates, service packs, etc. answer tech questions (correctly too). and administer the cad test to new hires (oy vey, these are graduates?)

<<adds in adjustable feet for uneven floor>>

for the most part, companies want someone who can operate the program, but be able to do it like the company is doing now (outdated in some instances) and they pay accordingly low to start. some will see value in someone who has the skills and pay well for it. others are blind and deaf.

dont be afraid to look someone in the eye and tell them they are wrong about how they are doing it. be it for hiring newbies or using CAD. just be diplomatic when you do it, and back it up.

[Brian Myers]

Maybe a primer on how to study a pgp file to figure out the shortcuts used by the firm. Learning how to be flexible and adapt their cad practices within a working environment. Why certain things are done so that different disciplines can coordinate and interoperate. Not just how to x-ref or block by why you use layer 0, or 0,0 as an insertion for files in the aec indsutry etc.

I very much agree with what you said, but your words in the quote also indicate an interesting problem we face. In Revit I believe terms like "x-ref" and pgp file are foreign. As a result, schools are currently more likely to stress the design aspects than CAD as these terms are relative to certain programs, but design is universal.

Or is it?

The WAY you design currently could very much depend on the programs you use even if good design principles are universal. So the best way of teaching a student may be with the program best designed to convey these design principles... but not the program necessarily used by the industry as a whole. I'm very interested myself in how this will be handled in the near future...

[glee.94356]

Agreed. Hmmm. We seem to agree on a number of things.
Personally, I still pull out a roll of trace and sketch my ideas out. In fact I'll hash it out till I'm happy and use those sketches as part of my presentation to my client. If there are obvious problems, I pull out Autocad or revit and do a quick study. Or I build a cardboard model. Depends on the forms I am working with and what the client can understand. Some prefer holding something as opposed to viewing it on screen or looking at a graphic. Once I get into Schematics everything shifts straight to cad. Since I'm a newbie with Revit, I have not ventured down the path of using it for my production drawings though I would like to. ( I use Revit to see if I have difficult intersections that could cause leaks or other problems.)

Design is a personal thing and everyone approaches it from different ways. It's why I think all methods of design should be taught. Not everyone will design the same way and what works for one design lecturer may not necessarily work for the student. Universities cannot be expected to teach every single software program out there. No funding or budgets to support this. Let alone lecturers that have the knowledge of multiple programs.
There are many programs out there that are "design" specific. Form Z & Sketch it, comes to mind. They are not industry standard (some will debate this). A student who learns how to use this because a particular studio required it may find it difficult to convince the firm they end up working for to purchase a seat for them to use as part of their design studies if the program does not already exist within the firm's environment ( I have seen this happen and done it myself a long time ago).
It's not necessarily a loss to the student because most cad programs have similar ways of getting things done (well sort of) and normally certain skill sets can be translated.
So again, I still think it's up to the student to arm themselves with the appropriate skills.
Colleges and universities should try to keep up and stay current with the industry as a whole but with budget cuts, I think this will be difficult.
I guess we have sort of strayed away from the gist of the associate drafting degree?
Actually to me in means nothing whether you earned an associates degree in drafting or while in a 4 year university, high school or in your basement. It's what you bring to the firm. If a drafter is what we are looking for, we look for how you perform on the computer as opposed to what your piece of paper says you did.
That said, I noticed a number of firms have posted trying to figure out what to have on their cad test for interviews. If they have enterpise cui's and custom pgps, that may hamper the interviewee and it may not be a fair way of accessing their abilities. Something for them to consider. It's actually why you should have a probationary period.