Best way to build towers in Revit?

[olakahahola]

Hi i am currently working on a tower in revit for my firm. And i just wanted to start a topic based on what would be the most effecient way in modeling them. Currently the best way i have figured out how to model the tower, is
1) making the core walls with their furred out walls go all the way through the tower. The reason behind this is one big wall is probally takes less infomation than a single wall for every single level.
2) then creating partition walls for the room seperation/ hallway, for levels that have differnt layouts. For example the first two levels are totally differnt from the fourth level. And the fifth level the partition walls go up to level 49, because they have the same layout, and the last three levels have their own floor plan.
3) then creating groups for furnature and interior walls that seperate the rooms/bathroom/closet.
4) I have decided to use furnature familes that are not 3d, and only have a elevation, and plan profile. To cut done on file size...to make work flow more managable.
5) For the curtain wall. I think making them go floor by floor, and creating a group out of the typ curtain wall so if you change panel size or mullion placement on one floor it will automatically change on all levels.
6) For stairs using multistory stairs for the levels that have the same floor to floor height.
(have been having a bit of trouble with this...because the calculation seems to fall a fraction of distance off and it adds up when you go up 40 something levels.. If anyone had any suggestions please let me know.)\

These are some of the things i have been doing to work on the tower. I don't know what other people are doing, so please let me know...andy help would be nice.....

thanks,
O

[sbrown]

It sounds like you've got a good plan.

If you are just starting the tower massing and floor area faces make quick work of creating a large building.

As for the walls going up multiple stories, I'm with you all the way, I just finished a project(only 16 stories) but did the units floor to floor and it was a huge performance mistake(Having 250 groups, instead of about 20). Next time I will take all the floors that stack and have one group for each unit type that has its walls spaning the floor to floor, then I will make a repeating detail component with a filled region to clean up the full building sections instead of using join geometry(the problem with the full ht. method).

As for the exterior curtain wall, I would use a curtain wall that goes full height set to have grids at your floor to floor heights. Unless you are using window wall, then the way you describe is best.

[greg.mcdowell]

Is this your current work flow? I ask because I'm curious how item 5 (curtain walls floor-to-floor and grouped) is working out for you. We did one where the wall went 30 stories and it killed the model... all those mullions. I know that making a Panel Family of repeating areas will make things run smoother but I'm not sure how the group thing will work and haven't made the time to test it.

Furniture with 2D Symbolic Lines is a great idea. I wonder though how much more it would add to the project in both file size and usability if there was also a 3D model set to be visible in 3D only... I know it'd make the file size larger but I'm less concerned about that than I am with usability of the model. And will this work if the furniture is at an angle to the elevation line? I'm thinking it won't but I'm not sure.

I too use stairs with multi-storey selected but haven't noticed any issues with accuracy (haven't really looked for it though either).

[luigi]

Hi i am ...O

Welcome Olaka.....Hahola

I don't have anything to add other than Olaka is what I call one of my nicest friends, she is polish, and her name is Aleksandra,Ola for short and Olaka in cute form....

Hope you get the help you need.....I would also search for World trade center and see what tips SOM has given......

[olakahahola]

Is this your current work flow? I ask because I'm curious how item 5 (curtain walls floor-to-floor and grouped) is working out for you. We did one where the wall went 30 stories and it killed the model... all those mullions. I know that making a Panel Family of repeating areas will make things run smoother but I'm not sure how the group thing will work and haven't made the time to test it.

Furniture with 2D Symbolic Lines is a great idea. I wonder though how much more it would add to the project in both file size and usability if there was also a 3D model set to be visible in 3D only... I know it'd make the file size larger but I'm less concerned about that than I am with usability of the model. And will this work if the furniture is at an angle to the elevation line? I'm thinking it won't but I'm not sure.

I too use stairs with multi-storey selected but haven't noticed any issues with accuracy (haven't really looked for it though either).

1)The reason i used grouped floor to floor curtain walls is because of changes to the curtain wall is alot easier to do; for example if you want to change the panel size. you edit the group and the whole curtain wall changes. I also think that if you have groups in your model and you put 50 copies of that group in your model, it should not be that heavy because they all share the same info. I am not a 100% sure on that. I think you can test it out quiet easily.
2) Regarding the furnature i think revit is smart enough to represent the 2d line work on a splayed angle if that is how it sits in reletive to the elevation. Doing 3d furnature, is fine but i don't think you need to have it on every level if it's just the same layout. I would do it for one floor and the others be 2d line work. What i have been doing is grouping room layout walls and furnatures together( everything inside the room except for the boundry walls).
Hope this helps.

[olakahahola]

Welcome Olaka.....Hahola

I don't have anything to add other than Olaka is what I call one of my nicest friends, she is polish, and her name is Aleksandra,Ola for short and Olaka in cute form....

Hope you get the help you need.....I would also search for World trade center and see what tips SOM has given......

Hi ya i know Ola is a really populare Polish nick name, i knew a girl that had that nick name too when i was in college, in RI. Ola is also a common Tibetan nick name given to the youngest child in the family. Ka...ha...hola....is Nepali for "I wonder where he is."
so Ola ka ha hola....would translate to "I wonder where Ola is"
Hey do you know where SOM's info on the WRC is? I would really like to see that model.
well that's all for now.
Revit away.....click...click...click.....(STC.....SaveToCentral....take a nap)..click..click..

[sbrown]

[QUOTE=olakahahola]1)The reason i used grouped floor to floor curtain walls is because of changes to the curtain wall is alot easier to do; for example if you want to change the panel size. you edit the group and the whole curtain wall changes. I also think that if you have groups in your model and you put 50 copies of that group in your model, it should not be that heavy because they all share the same info. I am not a 100% sure on that. I think you can test it out quiet easily.

Unfortunately you are way wrong about this, the more instances of the group the slower the model will perform. Groups are an absolute model killer in my experience. When you edit a group and finish the group it will then regen every instance of the group, so the more instances the longer this takes. Also the more chance for errors to one of the groups. If any of the instances of the group has a problem you will get errors about needing to fix your groups or ungroup them.

Groups seem to be okay while they are just sitting there, its when you edit them or do work that affects them that you will see the problems.

[lhanyok]

2) Regarding the furnature i think revit is smart enough to represent the 2d line work on a splayed angle if that is how it sits in reletive to the elevation.

It won't represent the 2d linework if it is at an angle to the elevation. I tried the 2d method with bathroom fixtures, and had a problem where one bathtub was against a wall that wasn't 90 degrees to the adjacent walls. The symbolic lines did not show up.

[michael.deorsey]

There is no question that groups can be a real problem. They have gotten better with each new release, and the two biggest problems seem to be the number of instances of a group and its interaction with elements outside the group. If you can limit the number of instances of any given group to say 10 you should be golden, and also disallow joins on any walls that extend out of groups and connect to other elements outside the group.

The item on your list that caught my attention is the multistory core walls, I too thought this was a good idea, and built my model that way. For SD and DD this work reasonably well, and I would do it again. But somewhere in DD those walls need to be split into 1 story high elements so that they will join other walls correctly. If you never have a wall joining one of these core walls at a corner, it may not be an issue.

Hope this helps.
Mike

[christopher.zoog51272]

We also take a hybrid approach to core/shear walls The advantages of modeling multistory core walls far out weighs the disadvantages. The advantage of cleaner section graphics alone is a huge (On super large projects join geometry can be a nightmare.)



On the tower project I am working on now (not WTC Tower 1), we model the concrete core walls based on extents of shear wall thicknesses. As the core travels up 118 floors (4 floor below grade 114 above) it changes shape and the walls change thickness, we model to those thickness extents. Any core walls that are not concrete and are not supported by the slab are also modeled their full height. An example would be drywall partitions dividing elevator shafts, which in some cases is 118 floors or around 515 meters. All other non concrete core walls that are supported by the slab are modeled slab to slab. We also model all the concrete link beams in the core. Now, it is important to note that we model the finish walls (furring, etc) separately as this changes a lot depending what floor you are on and what it’s used for, these are nearly always modeled floor to floor.



To echo everyone else, we also try to limit the use a groups wherever possible. We tend to use them for typical toilet rooms, and few other odds and ends. Although this tower does include a hotel from levels 78ish to 104, we have not used groups to create the typical hotel rooms. Mainly because no two units are exactly the same, they all related to the exterior “diamond shaped” diagrid structure and curtain wall the morphs and folds in on itself as it rises to a height of 555 meters, resulting in 114 unique floor plates. Hard to imagine, I know…. I will post images as soon as I am allowed.



Anyway, in additions to everyone good suggestions of using groups sparingly and multi-story core walls being ok, I would add this: If this a super-large tower, try to separate out the curtain into another project, then link it back in. Performance can be greatly enhanced, in fact on our projects we could not do it any other way.



Finally… keep at it….. really tall towers CAN be done in Revit!



Hth,

Z