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Thread: Viewports and Defpoint layer

  1. #21
    Administrator Opie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Quote Originally Posted by k.baxter
    My fav. E-mail memo is below.
    We were having a problem with people putting old utility alignments to the side and on the defpoints layer. This did cause problems in those files only. We did notice a lag problem, and the occasional unexplained crash. They since have been cleaned and we haven’t noticed any problems. It’s very hard to prove the behaviors are linked, but the coincidence is strong.

    The posts I pulled them from are quite dated, but I think the information they held was still valid should you wish to look up my materials.
    Can you replicate the drawing and get the same results? Was the size of the file larger than normal? Did a third party add-on modify the drawing in some way? I've had AutoCAD crashes before with a clean drawing.

    Even though the Autodesk technician states it is a bad idea, what are the possible problems from it?

    I have dealt with drawings over a period of months to even years that contain objects placed or drawn using the defpoints layer. A small percentage of those drawings have been corrupted. With such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer.

    As I have said before, I don't advocate for or against its use for other than what it is supposedly intended for. I am looking for some type of evidence which proves data loss is from this use. Just saying it is a bad idea doesn't answer the original question.

    I could tell my kids that same answer to something they don't need to do and the next question would be, "Why?"
    If you have a technical question, please find the appropriate forum and ask it there.
    You will get a quicker response from your fellow AUGI members than if you sent it to me via a PM or email.
    jUSt

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    In working with drawings that have come from architects and engineers that put things on defpoints and then freeze or turn off that layer. I've always encountered some sort of a problem with the file. Most of the time if it is on defpoints I completely remove it from the layer whether by deleting or by moving to a new layer that has defined properties. It has seemed to solve some not all problems that have been arising with the file. Is there anything besides doing this and then running audit and purge and not putting anything on defpoints that might help in "fixing" or preventing problems from happening?

    Thanks Baxter for your research that is definitely going to help calm some of the "cad savvy" engineers that refuse to stay away from defpoints.

  3. #23
    Certified AUGI Addict jaberwok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Quote Originally Posted by Opie
    Can you replicate the drawing and get the same results? Was the size of the file larger than normal? Did a third party add-on modify the drawing in some way? I've had AutoCAD crashes before with a clean drawing.

    Even though the Autodesk technician states it is a bad idea, what are the possible problems from it?

    I have dealt with drawings over a period of months to even years that contain objects placed or drawn using the defpoints layer. A small percentage of those drawings have been corrupted. With such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer.

    As I have said before, I don't advocate for or against its use for other than what it is supposedly intended for. I am looking for some type of evidence which proves data loss is from this use. Just saying it is a bad idea doesn't answer the original question.

    I could tell my kids that same answer to something they don't need to do and the next question would be, "Why?"
    Brother Richard, I see your point but you yourself say "with such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer" and, in saying that, you acknowledge that such use of defpoints is likely to be a factor. Why take a chance?

  4. #24
    Administrator Opie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Quote Originally Posted by jaberwok
    Brother Richard, I see your point but you yourself say "with such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer" and, in saying that, you acknowledge that such use of defpoints is likely to be a factor. Why take a chance?
    The keyword is conclusively. If the objects on defpoints was a problem, the percentage of corruption should be much larger. There are other factors that could be causing the corruption.

    Just saying it is a bad idea doesn't answer the original question.
    If you have a technical question, please find the appropriate forum and ask it there.
    You will get a quicker response from your fellow AUGI members than if you sent it to me via a PM or email.
    jUSt

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Opie, I feel you have taken a position that you will always have a highly defendable view. This is why I think I’m done reading this thread; no reasonable amount of typing on my end will see this to an agreeable conclusion.



    Regarding our files, they were of normal size, they currently are 396KB and may have been double that at a point but still well within the norm for file size. They were created in house from our standard templates using no third party software. We draft straight on 2K6 and 2K5.

    I also stated the problems we encountered from this. When we have an increased number of crashes from different users across the office I can only draw concussions using the available information. The only constant in the whole set of events, is that job. Only after removing the items and creating new files are our problems gone.

    Back to where you stand, anyone who presents a different idea has the problem of reproducibility. Simple fact; No I can’t reproduce it, nor do I have the ambition to do so, so yes I can’t “conclusively” prove this theory. But why beat your head on a wall with future problems when you could simply type LAYER, can create a new one?

  6. #26
    All AUGI, all the time TerribleTim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Quote Originally Posted by k.baxter
    . . . But why beat your head on a wall with future problems when you could simply type LAYER, and create a new one?
    Right! I totaly agree. Put your viewports on a "viewport" layer. And to Opie, it makes it easier to understand because you can simply select the viewport goemetry and then. . .look up to the layers toolbar! Wow, it will read "viewport" or whatever you named your "viewport layer! Let's see, that's 1 click, and 1 look, and you know what it is! You said use the "properties" to see if it's a viewport. So that's, select geometry, open properties, pull down filter list, look at what it is. That's 3 clicks, and lots of focus, sounds slower to me. Seems to defeate the "stupid-simple" theory.

    P.S. - small disclaimer time! Don't take this as a personal attack or bashing in ANY way!

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Quote Originally Posted by dallredcadman
    I have always been told not to put anything but notes on the defpoint layer but where i work there is a lot of people that like to put Viewports on Defpoints. My understanding behind not putting a viewport on Defpoints is for the simple matter of possibly wanting the viewport to show and for easier manipulation in layer control. Is there any other reason besides that?
    Thanks
    I feel that AutoCAD should have created the mview object on a non-printing layer such as Defpoints by default. The reasoning behind this, is that it does not plot if it’s on layer Defpoints. You can batch plot a set of drawings in a folder from any outside firm, without having to go into each drawing and turn off the layers that they created the mviews on. Which as you know, it’s possible to create mviews in one layout alone, on several layers. Not a good idea for plotting. This is my opinion, and I feel that Autodesk should have addressed this in AutoCAD 2000.

  8. #28
    All AUGI, all the time TerribleTim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Cadd
    I feel that AutoCAD should have created the mview object on a non-printing layer such as Defpoints by default. . . .from any outside firm, without having to go into each drawing and turn off the layers that they created the mviews on. . .
    I get what you are saying, but there are some firms that want the viewport plotted to have a border around the drawing. Don't ask why, they just do.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    This topic has caused some headaches here at work. We had a few outsourced projects that we ended up finishing up. When the drawings came back, it was no telling what layers they used for mviews. Our Drafting Manager made a call to create all mviews on layer Defpoints and define the color of Defpoints as dark grey so if it’s on, it doesn’t stand out. When we outsource projects, he lets them know what he expects. Since then, everyone hasn’t thought about it too much. It works for us and we’re ok with it.

    P.S. Per your last post: Couldn’t you just draw a rectangle to please them?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Viewports and Defpoint layer

    Do you draft ALL of your drawings on your own or do you receive some of your backgrounds from others? If you are the original person drawing on defpoints at least from what I've noticed since posting and thinking back to when I was an intern for an architect when we have been the ones to put stuff on defpoints we have not had a problem but when we have been the person to receive drawings with things on defpoints we have had problems from CAD crashing to unexpected results of not being able to select defpoints to removed them unless we use qselect.

    If you are doing a presentation a plain old normal viewport of a rectangle isn't that appealing if you make your viewport bordered and it is a circle or a polyline that is a different shape to draw attention to a part of the project and is set to plot it begins to stand out and draw attention to your drawings. And yes you could just draw a circle or something else but then wouldn't you have to draw it twice and be ineffective in your work just because you want it to be on defpoints? never mind that there is a possibility that somebody later on down the line gets semi corrupt files because something is on defpoints (a.k.a. me).

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