Revit & New generation users vs old users

[jaberwok]

As a conractor, he should have known (and probably did know) better than to expect support, training or anything else from the companies he worked for.
But don't forget that, in the 80s, we were the enthusiasts, the evangelists for CAD, the ones who figured out how to make it useful.
Don't assume that experience and enthusiasm are always incompatible.

Honesty forces me to add that, as you get older, it becomes harder to learn new ways and harder still to forget old ways. - old dogs, new tricks syndrome.

[cadtag]

One of the advantages of getting older is perspective, or maybe cynicism.... Having heard the repeated marketing blurbs about the"the best CAD ever" or interoperability or compatability over and over, one is less susceptible to believing the adverts. The reality is very different. The latest buzzword in design software, be it BIM, real-time, dynamic, or what-have-you, will not do my laundry, iron my shirts, walk the dog, or give me a 5000% ROI on production of contract drawings.

When CAD was first moving into major design firms, I was involved in a study contrasting Integraph workstation vs manual drafting, and over the course of 12 months, comparing numerouse multi-discipline jobs, the hours spent on drafting time were equivalent. I did a similar study 20 years later, contrasting the old numbers to current tech - and despite multi-million dollar investments in hardware, software, training, subscription, etc. the current hrs/sht were within 10% of the old numbers.

with my current dual-core, dual display, max RAM, SATA drive, I spend the same amount of time waiting on the machine as I did with my old 286.

[tedg]

I too am in that "older" generation (44) and started on the board, worked my way up.
I'm exited to jump on the new stuff (be it Revit or what ever) but I want to know it's something that will stick around a while.

I want to know that when I retire (in about 20 years), I'll be as current as I can be with the technology out there so if I want to "tinker around" with a part time job designing, or teaching or maybe consulting, I'll have the tools to do it.

BTW did you say you have 40 year old drafters who will retire in 5 years?

....
And than there is people who are the older generations 40-65+ year old CAD drafters. Who started off using the good old drawing board, T-squares, set squares etc. They have gone through the age of DOS to windows 3.1 and the very first AutoCAD, but now they refuse to use anything else other than AutoCAD.
.....
I keep telling them that up-skilling is important and the company require drafter to be proficient with Revit. I understand from their perspective - they will will have nor merit in going through the trouble of learning a new package since they will retire in 1-5 years time.

[Misteracad]

When CAD was first moving into major design firms, I was involved in a study contrasting Integraph workstation vs manual drafting, and over the course of 12 months, comparing numerouse multi-discipline jobs, the hours spent on drafting time were equivalent. I did a similar study 20 years later, contrasting the old numbers to current tech - and despite multi-million dollar investments in hardware, software, training, subscription, etc. the current hrs/sht were within 10% of the old numbers.

I'm actually quite shocked by that assessment! Man, I was just talking to a colleague last night about an exercise that his firm employed many years ago where the end results were CAD wins when it comes to revisions. Since I was never personally involved in such a test, that is the assumption that I have operated under for almost 20 years! I assume that during your 12 month testing that both new creation as well as editing of drawings was compared? If so, I can't help but wonder what the results of similar real-world testing with BIM products would disclose today. It's obviously too early to know...only time will tell...but that doesn't make it any easier now to convince the masses the best way to proceed The mindset I am seeing is that it is time to move forward or get left behind. Funny how history always repeats lol.

[tedg]

I'm actually quite shocked by that assessment! Man, I was just talking to a colleague last night about an exercise that his firm employed many years ago where the end results were CAD wins when it comes to revisions. Since I was never personally involved in such a test, that is the assumption that I have operated under for almost 20 years! I assume that during your 12 month testing that both new creation as well as editing of drawings was compared? If so, I can't help but wonder what the results of similar real-world testing with BIM products would disclose today. It's obviously too early to know...only time will tell...but that doesn't make it any easier now to convince the masses the best way to proceed The mindset I am seeing is that it is time to move forward or get left behind. Funny how history always repeats lol.

Yea, I was a little surprised by those results too.
I couldn't imagine drawing on the board as fast as can be done in cad.
Especially editing revisions, changes, enlarged plans, etc.
Maybe at the start of a drawing it's about the same time, but by just copying the title block alone to a new drawing, you take 1/8th the time than doing it on the board. (of course that's just a wild guess but you get my point )

[cadtag]

The comparison numbers were based on the entire projects that were initiated, from start to finish, including all revisions, changes, updates, addenda, and change orders during the time period. So yes, although it's counter-intuitive drafting/drawing production time did not change significantly between 25 year old manual processes and current CAD.

What did change, was the way designs were revised. The orignal ink-on-mylar drawings were not started until the design was well thought out - be it in on tracing paper or with a slide rule. And the design was not revised unless there was a compelling reason. With CAD, the perceived ease of making changes resulted in half-thought out being drafted (Here, draw this and then I'll figure out what I want after I see it), and then revised repeatedly until something eventually worked. Time that was saved in doing changes was eaten up as fast as it was saved by ongoing changes. The premise of 'design re-usability' hasn't panned out either as well as the vendors claimed.

It's very possible (and I'd like to think true) that the facilities being designed were better facilities thanks to the accuracy, flexibility, and revisability of CAD -- but I could not identify a metric to measure that possible result.

And Title blocks were preprinted on pinbar or photo blowbacks. old-school drafters had many techniques to minimize wastful effort, and we did not use ink until it was time. 'Never draw what you can trace, never trace what you can stickyback'.

BIM's another question -- in various incarnations I've been reading and hearing about it for at least the past decade and a half as the 'next big thing'. And conceptually the thoughts are great. but..... archivability is a huge question mark, and the lifespan of the software formats (objects, etc.) is pretty darn short. Is there any reason today to think that Revit 2025 will be able to access or use the drawings you file today? Can Civil3D 2009 open and work with drawings and object from C3D 2005? If I can't read and reuse the data when I need, is it very valuable?

[Beancud]

One of the advantages of getting older is perspective, or maybe cynicism.... Having heard the repeated marketing blurbs about the"the best CAD ever" or interoperability or compatability over and over, one is less susceptible to believing the adverts. The reality is very different. The latest buzzword in design software, be it BIM, real-time, dynamic, or what-have-you, will not do my laundry, iron my shirts, walk the dog, or give me a 5000% ROI on production of contract drawings.

Well I think Revit has passed the sales and marketing pitch and fully functional in the industry, though you are right though about being older will have perspective. As you have seen it all, things come and go, seen many things fail and end up being waste of time.

I think from repeat encounters of these events people start to distrust anything new and stick to what has always worked for them. I really don't think its the product that has the issue, its all about attitude. The right attitude to seem improvements. You just have to make sure anything new will have benefits of better quality, efficiency, and can still produce what older programs have been producing. In my opinion it is really about attitude and setting goals.

I'm finding it hard finding forward thinking drafters who has XX amont of experience. Especially in the services side, everyone around me is grey and worn out. I don't want to stereo type drafters but it isn't exactly an ideal occupation for enthusiastic younger people to get into....

[schrodingerscat]

Say what you want about the time difference between "classic" drafting and CAD, but I'd say the biggest improvement from pen and paper (in overly simple terms) drafting to computer aided is the fact that those of us who can't draw can now become drafters.

I remember back in high school I did "tech" (metalwork, woodwork, design) and the design component was 90% drafting with pen and paper, and 10% was that wonderfully **** program Cadsman.

I failed design. I cannot draw.

5 years after that little incident, I started work as a drafter on ACAD 2005.

[Teresa.Martin]

Okay...not to beat a dead horse here, but I know a man whom is pushing 80 years old and is totally self taught on Revit. He is doing projects! If he can learn and utilize this software and get excited about it, then age is really not the factor but attitude.

Unfortunately, this is where the work needs to happen to retain valuable employees whom are having trouble switching over. Sometimes it is because they are comfortable or do not want to appear stupid. Sometimes it is because of long term management issues pushing things and then dropping them in mid stream or demanding and immediate ROI without training, support, etc.

I have also found that older people need more structured training and repetition. People learn differently at different ages, so you need to pay attention to that.

Additionally, you need to find their currency...By currency, I do not mean how much they get paid, but what will make them move to that side of the fence...such as..."Hey, I could go home early if I had done my schedules in Revit..." or "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have all my callouts update when I move a detail from one sheet to another after the project manager has moved it for the 5th friggn time!"

Find their currency, and you will get an ally. It is usually one or two simple things.

I hope this helps!

[tsigler]

I just came across this thread.

For the record, the "Old Guys" aren't all that way. I've be doing architectural drafting since 1961....CAD'ing since 1984. My company just landed a project that requires Revit MEP. MEP is NOT my favorite discipline but I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of Revit. So I'll draw just about anything I'm asked to for the chance to use it.

BTW, I could have hung up my "T-Square" and retired a few years ago.