First Project with C3D 2008

[sinc]

BTW, that default template is named something like "Imperial NCS LDT", or something like that. The default styles in that template are setup a lot like Land Desktop, so it might feel more familiar than some of the others.

[Openwheeler]

So instead, create a brand new C3D drawing from a C3D template, simply INSERT the other drawing into your new C3D drawing.

That's great "In a Nut Shell" information that can be used!

But this just gets the LDT data into your drawing. You can convert the LDT points to C3D points using the option in Points -> Utilities, but you'll still also want to build a real, live C3D surface that you can use as targets for corridors and grading objects, etc. The easiest way to do this is probably still to just use the "Create Surface from TIN" option and browse to the LDT project's DTM folder - that should create the surface fully-formed, although you may have to apply a boundary.

This may be a stupid question, but can't I import into C3D file that I just created, the LDT points, tin, surface, and contours that are already created? You would think that they would make C3D use the data from the other Autodesk products and they would be cross compatible to one another, but with different capabilities, ie...3 deminsional.

In order to get to the point where you don't need to use LDT, you'll have to create a template that contains all the Description Keys and Point Styles that you need. You don't need to do that part for this particular project, since the surveyors already created an LDT drawing for you, but that will be a goal for later.

Yes, this is my ultimate goal, but just wanting to get my hands dirty first. With the information that you have been so kind to share, I feel more comfortable in getting them dirty now. Thanks for the direction.

[Openwheeler]

BTW, that default template is named something like "Imperial NCS LDT", or something like that. The default styles in that template are setup a lot like Land Desktop, so it might feel more familiar than some of the others.

I see…They offer (3) different ones for Metric and Imperial, first are Base, seconds are LDT, and thirds Extended. I read up on them, and extended said it had more styles and settings in it, so I was thinking it would be the best to build you own from as you would have more verity and selections to choice from when creating your own template. But I can definitely see that familiarity would be a plus when converting to this new software format.

[sinc]

This may be a stupid question, but can't I import into C3D file that I just created, the LDT points, tin, surface, and contours that are already created? You would think that they would make C3D use the data from the other Autodesk products and they would be cross compatible to one another, but with different capabilities, ie...3 deminsional.

In a sense, that's what you are doing. But remember that in Land Desktop, the surface does not live in the drawing itself, it's in the Project. The drawing itself merely contains a bunch of linework that is mostly disconnected, and does not contain all the info necessary to rebuild the surface automatically. (This is one of the problems with Land Desktop that C3D tries to "fix", by having all info for the surface live inside the DWG file, with no external database.)

If you create the TIN triangles in Land Desktop, you can use those TIN triangles in C3D to create a C3D surface. You can also use the Land Desktop contours, and build a surface from those (although this is the most error-prone way of creating a surface, since contour data is not a complete picture of the surface).

But the easiest thing is probably just to create a surface straight from the LDT project. And I would have to test this again to verify it, but I *think* when you create a surface this way, it will automatically change in Civil-3D if your surveyor should go back and edit the surface in LDT.

[Openwheeler]

The drawing itself merely contains a bunch of linework that is mostly disconnected, and does not contain all the info necessary to rebuild the surface automatically. (This is one of the problems with Land Desktop that C3D tries to "fix", by having all info for the surface live inside the DWG file, with no external database.)

That is correct and in order to get those capabilities, you must create the surface within the C3D environment? ie...your answer below. Am I understanding this correctly? I think I am.

If you create the TIN triangles in Land Desktop, you can use those TIN triangles in C3D to create a C3D surface. You can also use the Land Desktop contours, and build a surface from those.

Thank you for letting that be known, I don't want problematic issues in the infancy stages of developing a new system for the department.

I have found a section within the User’s Guide> Managing Projects> Understanding Project Management> Transition from Land Desktop that talks about Import Data from Land Desktop. I quote…“The recommended use of this Import function is to bring individual surfaces, alignments, or pipe runs into new drawings, one object per drawing, for use in AutoCAD Civil 3D projects”

Is this referring to another way of getting data into C3D and is it a better, more viable option? May this be what your talking about in your quote below?

But the easiest thing is probably just to create a surface straight from the LDT project. And I would have to test this again to verify it, but I *think* when you create a surface this way, it will automatically change in Civil-3D if your surveyor should go back and edit the surface in LDT.

[Openwheeler]

I didn't read anything about the (3) templates in your replay so I'm using the LDT one as you suggested. Within the new file, I'm setting up the Survey database (trying) and I get down to the Equipment Databases, I Review the Standard Deviation settings, I set the Units Distance and Angle, but on the Angle Type we are always on the Azimuth with the collectors/equipment, which they give only Right and Left as choices. We kept it on Default: Right...is this a big deal?

I'm getting my hands dirty and copying the steps from the Tutorials. I asked the Survey Department head about the topic above.

Now I'm at the Figure Prefix definitions... (I'm not getting this to well) Is this for every feature/object that you bring in? Do you create a new one for all the objects? ie...lots, bldg, road, mh, pipe, etc...

Seems like that would be very time consuming, but you would have a complete database that you could import to new files, and you could add to it as you come across new objects in the future. Am I close with this theory?

I fell that the setting up the Survey Database and bringing in the data is the most confusing part of this software, but it’s the most important part as you have stated. I’m getting it slowly, but surely…still a lot of gray area for me. Thanks again for your help.

[sinc]

I have found a section within the User’s Guide> Managing Projects> Understanding Project Management> Transition from Land Desktop that talks about Import Data from Land Desktop. I quote…“The recommended use of this Import function is to bring individual surfaces, alignments, or pipe runs into new drawings, one object per drawing, for use in AutoCAD Civil 3D projects”

Ah, I forgot about that. We've never used it. When we moved to C3D, we started new projects in C3D, and finished up the old ones in Land Desktop. That worked for us, because we weren't in the middle of any long-term, multi-year projects.

[sinc]

Now I'm at the Figure Prefix definitions... (I'm not getting this to well) Is this for every feature/object that you bring in? Do you create a new one for all the objects? ie...lots, bldg, road, mh, pipe, etc...

Seems like that would be very time consuming, but you would have a complete database that you could import to new files, and you could add to it as you come across new objects in the future. Am I close with this theory?

I fell that the setting up the Survey Database and bringing in the data is the most confusing part of this software, but it’s the most important part as you have stated. I’m getting it slowly, but surely…still a lot of gray area for me. Thanks again for your help.

I'd agree, and go you one better - this is actually an atrocious setup Autodesk has created. And yes, it is very painful to get setup. But after that, it works OK, and things like Surfaces are so much better than in Land Desktop that we put up with the disastrous stuff, like Autodesk's FBK import process.

You only need Figure Prefixes for linework. Things like a manhole would be done with a Point Style and a Description Key. But since you also only need the Figure Prefixes setup for linework, you don't necessarily need that setup for right now. You'll need to set it up eventually, so you can dump field data straight into C3D without using Land Desktop and without "connecting the dots" manually, the way your surveyors are doing now, but you don't need to worry about this if you simply want to use the surface your surveyors already created in LDT.

As for that equipment database, strictly speaking, it's necessary in order to correctly adjust traverses. But C3D has so many problems and weaknesses when it comes to Survey that we actually don't use it at all at this point. Maybe after Autodesk has fixed more of the problems with Survey in C3D, we might start using it. But at this point, it's just something that makes C3D seem really complicated to people who are just trying to transition from Land Desktop.

Since the Survey Database also knows absolutely nothing about GPS, and most of our jobs involve a mixture of GPS and conventional equipment, we find it pretty worthless. We do our control networks and GPS data reductions in TGO, then simply dump CSV files out of our data collector and into C3D. This means we can't take advantage of C3D's Survey Networks, but since they are designed for conventional equipment only, they aren't really useful for us anyway.

[Openwheeler]

Ah, I forgot about that. We've never used it. When we moved to C3D, we started new projects in C3D, and finished up the old ones in Land Desktop. That worked for us, because we weren't in the middle of any long-term, multi-year projects.

I tried to use this feature and couldn't get anything (files) to appear in the selection boxes, just the default stuff from the original settings. No matter what path I tried for the project and the project name, I couldn't get anything else to show. And in the original settings, all that would check is the pipe box, no surface, alignment, points, etc... I don't know about that tool, at least I didn't have much success with it. No big deal...off to bigger fish!

[Openwheeler]

You only need Figure Prefixes for linework. Things like a manhole would be done with a Point Style and a Description Key.

I'm glad you said MH and points features, because I tried to Import the points after I Inserted the file, I un-checked not to overwrite data, and create new points group, but the original points disappeared. All that you could see was the new red X point (the style for object? yes?). We need those point numbers and point description to be visible (text). I'm sure it's something I'm doing incorrectly. Can you help so I will get 3-dimensional features from my points? If you list the points, they have z values with them. How do I get points to relate to a style and converted to an object so I can touch or see depth in object viewer?

As for that equipment database, strictly speaking, it's necessary in order to correctly adjust traverses. But C3D has so many problems and weaknesses when it comes to Survey that we actually don't use it at all at this point. Maybe after Autodesk has fixed more of the problems with Survey in C3D, we might start using it. But at this point, it's just something that makes C3D seem really complicated to people who are just trying to transition from Land Desktop.

WOW! I wasted a lot of time researching and doing useless exercises, tutorials. You live and learn, thanks for the information for the future C3D hopefuls.

Since the Survey Database also knows absolutely nothing about GPS, and most of our jobs involve a mixture of GPS and conventional equipment, we find it pretty worthless. We do our control networks and GPS data reductions in TGO, then simply dump CSV files out of our data collector and into C3D. This means we can't take advantage of C3D's Survey Networks, but since they are designed for conventional equipment only, they aren't really useful for us anyway.

I'll pass this information on to our Survey Department head.