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Thread: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

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    AUGI Addict jsteinhauer's Avatar
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    Question What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    I have been going through my firm Revit content libraries, trying to standardize parameters & the like. I am wondering what the Finish parameter is supposed to do? It is not a material, so it can't control the geometry for renderings. I find it pointless, and I can't get ride of it... Does anyone use this parameter in their families? If so, what for?

    Thanks,
    Jeff S.

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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    I have used it a few times in schedules. For instance, when dealing with hardware, I can schedule a finish (brz, clr ann, oil rubbed brz, etc) without affecting the material that I want to show in my rendering. I image there are lots of instances like this where you might want to schedule a finish (doors, hardware, stone (like honed vs. polished), etc.)

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    Revit Mararishi aaronrumple's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    Revit should have had both materials and finishes for all objects... Material should have described of what the thing is made. Finish should be what was applied over the material. Both should have had rendering appearances. The finish setting should have over ridden the material setting for rendering. The paint tool should apply a finish over the material. This is he sort of stuff the design team should be talking about rather than, "Is is resize or scale?"....

    But what do I know....

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    Member eegbertson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    I came over from the inside the factory blog and am recording this information.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronrumple View Post
    This is he sort of stuff the design team should be talking about rather than, "Is is resize or scale?"....
    The blog post did ask for other cases where terminology was not ideal or confusing so I appreciate this additional case. For the record "re size" vs. "scale" garnered much more in the way of negative comments than "finish" ever had. Additionally efforts evaluating top level command names were not done at the expense of other re-work and the changing of some terms did not mean we changed all the terms we would like. Some changes are expensive given complex associations in the system.

    Again I welcome additional cases so they can be considered and evaluated
    Last edited by eegbertson; 2009-04-22 at 02:25 PM.

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    Revit Mararishi aaronrumple's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    Quote Originally Posted by eegbertson View Post
    For the record "re size" vs. "scale" garnered much more in the way of negative comments than "finish" ever had.
    Resize/Scale gets negative comments becase we see it as waste of our subscription money. Trim/Extend/Fillet/Move/Copy - all of that program related hooey we really don't care about. Computer terminology we can figure out - we've all adjusted to email/twitter/googling/blogging etc. That's just part of modern culture.

    The teminology we need right is that which is directly related to our industry. Material and Finish is a great example. These are very different things. Revit is missing the whole concept of finishes. that goes well beyond just terminolgy. It should direct how the features develop and what new features are added. This example is so easy to integrate into fututre releases of Revit - it just builds on top of the existing material feature.

    The other area where Revit is way behind is in object styles and family categories. Doors - they have hardware. Why isn't this built into the facory object styles? Not to mention the whole screwed up window head height issuse. We place windows by head - not sill. This has long been complained about. Finish the architectural object model - and fast. Otherwise BIM becomes a tower of babble. (which is why AutoCAD never had a chance at being BIM). You don't even have to invent or debate this teminology - hire an archietct and just have them tell you what things are.

    Generic models is becoming a collection of garbage. Everyone builds things they can't figure a place for generic models. How about a template for ceilings that follows the rules of ceilings? All the curvy ceilings panels that are out there we model as generic models - I modeled the entire catalog of Armstong Serpentina ceilings panels on my last project - of course as generic models. Made me sad.

    Call your widgets whatever your want. We don't care. We'll learn that in short order. But get the stuff that really matters to use right.

    (...and what is the difference between an electrical fixture and electrical equipment? Is my gaming equipment specialty equipment or electrical equipment? Heck, my poker table requires power - does that make it furniture or electrical equipment?) You have to get the I right in the BiM thing. Get the idea?
    Last edited by aaronrumple; 2009-04-22 at 08:38 PM.
    Don't drink the Kool-Aid...
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    AUGI Addict jsteinhauer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronrumple View Post
    Resize/Scale gets negative comments becase we see it as waste of our subscription money. Trim/Extend/Fillet/Move/Copy - all of that program related hooey we really don't care about. Computer terminology we can figure out - we've all adjusted to email/twitter/googling/blogging etc. That's just part of modern culture.

    The teminology we need right is that which is directly related to our industry. Material and Finish is a great example. These are very different things. Revit is missing the whole concept of finishes. that goes well beyond just terminolgy. It should direct how the features develop and what new features are added. This example is so easy to integrate into fututre releases of Revit - it just builds on top of the existing material feature.

    The other area where Revit is way behind is in object styles and family categories. Doors - they have hardware. Why isn't this built into the facory object styles? Not to mention the whole screwed up window head height issuse. We place windows by head - not sill. This has long been complained about. Finish the architectural object model - and fast. Otherwise BIM becomes a tower of babble. (which is why AutoCAD never had a chance at being BIM). You don't even have to invent or debate this teminology - hire an archietct and just have them tell you what things are.

    Generic models is becoming a collection of garbage. Everyone builds things they can't figure a place for generic models. How about a template for ceilings that follows the rules of ceilings? All the curvy ceilings panels that are out there we model as generic models - I modeled the entire catalog of Armstong Serpentina ceilings panels on my last project - of course as generic models. Made me sad.

    Call your widgets whatever your want. We don't care. We'll learn that in short order. But get the stuff that really matters to use right.

    (...and what is the difference between an electrical fixture and electrical equipment? Is my gaming equipment specialty equipment or electrical equipment? Heck, by poker table requires power - does that make it furniture or electrical equipment?) You have to get the I right in the BiM thing. Get the idea?
    Aaron,

    I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Most of my families I create I have to start as a generic model, because they could fall under three or four category's. Why not follow the CSI section naming conventions or something else that relates back to our industry? I also don't understand why we can't remove the base parameters. If it's a parameter no one is ever going to use, why can't we get ride of it? At least be able to make them type or instance. I can't be limited like this, it pains me.

    Thank you Aaron for your insight,

    Jeff S.

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    Member eegbertson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    I get the idea and agree. There were many times when the system of category subcategory shows its limitations. Structure could use some subcategories as framing is too encompassing. Other suggestions are ways to separate Interior and Exterior walls.

    _erik

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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    WOW...thanks for the post Aaron. I think this type of thing summarizes many Revit Users' frustrations.

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    AUGI Addict jsteinhauer's Avatar
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    Question Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    I am revisiting the issue of Material vs. Finish. I have door families that have a material (HM, AL or WD). But, the finish could be something completely different. The question I have is, why does Revit think that the material drives the finish/rendering appearance?

    I am currently removing Material parameters, that have a finish associated to them. I am replacing them with a simple text parameter for scheduling. The rendering will then be controlled by a Finish parameter. Now the trick is to make sure I get all of the families converted to the correct parameters. Magical 'Fix Family' button anyone? Please???

    Does anyone have words of wisdom, or suggestions for my process?

    Thanks,

    Jeff S.

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    Default Re: What's the point of FINISH system parameter

    Quote Originally Posted by jsteinhauer View Post
    I am revisiting the issue of Material vs. Finish. I have door families that have a material (HM, AL or WD). But, the finish could be something completely different. The question I have is, why does Revit think that the material drives the finish/rendering appearance?

    I am currently removing Material parameters, that have a finish associated to them. I am replacing them with a simple text parameter for scheduling. The rendering will then be controlled by a Finish parameter. Now the trick is to make sure I get all of the families converted to the correct parameters. Magical 'Fix Family' button anyone? Please???

    Does anyone have words of wisdom, or suggestions for my process?

    Thanks,

    Jeff S.
    We actually use material parameters for both material and finish. The finish parameter controls the material of the object (thus the elevation and render appearance). Maybe someday Autodesk will enact a finish/ material option, parameter or something else. Hopefully we can use the existing material parameters, if not we can change them then. For now it forces people to use the same abbreviations throughout the project (text parameters will let them put in whatever they want...)

    My 2 ¢

    Nick

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